Forums >Racing>2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread
Mmmm Bop
Swim - same question as DW: where did you get the double hard workout idea?
I’d love to ask his coach about the latest 10k result...there’s never any explanation why his races never explain his training?
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
JT - You are too nice. Here's an interesting exercise: what's the standard deviation of your miles per week over the last 12 weeks? Yeah, yeah, nerd alert, but it'll give you some insight: I've averaged 46 miles per week with a standard deviation of 21! I guarantee you that nobody on this board has that sort of volatility. Maybe Fin because he was injured, but I doubt even that. Finally, one thing I noticed with your training: do you run 20+ every single weekend? I feel like I can't remember the last time you didn't.
JMac: I didn't last weekend as I took a recovery week, but usually I do try to get in 20-22 for my LR. The LR is my favorite and a slow-ass like me needs to approach things from the endurance side anyway, so I try to maximize that angle.
I did not run any quantum mechanical calculations on your weekly mileage but just looking at it on strava it does not look that inconsistent; a couple down weeks end of Dec/first week of Jan but other than those you haven't had any major drops. And I think putting in those huge workouts can compensate for lower average weekly mileage. It will be an interesting experiment to see how you fair at Boston from this cycle. I think you'll do pretty well.
2:52:16 (2018)
RIP Milkman
JT - How do you decide whether to do something like 20 with quality or just 23 EZ? One thing I like about Daniels is I know that my longest runs should always be at easy pace (because he hammers you with the rest), and so I don't have to think about it. I also know running 20+ miles with quality would destroy me, but I do know people love doing things like 10E+10MP as a good test of whether they can hit their goal pace.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Mother of Cats
The last time you asked a question like this, it started a robust “discussion” on easy pace
Ummm...yeah....And robust is a nice word choice
MMC - I don't take most antacids - they generally irritate me as well. Two exceptions: 1) is Pepto Bismol before hard workouts - I also have vocal chord dysfunction, and the Pepto coats my vocal chords and seems to help stuff. 2) is that I will take Zantac if I'm having a really hard time with seasonal allergies - Zantac is an H2 inhibitor/antihistamine that works synergistically with H1 inhibitor/antihistamines (that's your Benadryl/Claritin/Zyrtec type drugs).
Basically, you can think of my entire GI system, from esophagus all the way to colon, as very sensitive tissue that gets inflamed easily (and yes, I've had all of that scoped - end-to-end). So I just need to be really careful not to irritate it. In the same way I need to avoid wearing certain fabrics or using certain detergents because I'll get a skin rash. 99% of the time, I get it right. Every once in a while, I don't.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
JMac: For me it's really a week to week decision, how I feel, what I did earlier in the week. This cycle I haven't done really any major quality in my long runs, just a couple with fast finishes. And I'm starting to worry a bit about that, seeing that many here are putting lots of Q in their LRs. So out of peer pressure from you guys I will probably do some Q in my upcoming LR this weekend
Probably won’t post here every week to give an update, but I’ll try to post every two weeks or if something crazy happens. This was my second week doing a workout. This weeks workout went a lot better than last week. Did 10 miles at 6:19 on the roads which felt pretty easy (to my surprise) and got a fastish 2:30 LR in during a snow storm. It also will be my 2nd week over 60 and my 5th over 50. Not the best, but waaaaay better than the build leading to my debut. I don’t plan on going higher than ~65 per week until after Boston. I’m concerned that jacking mileage up and intensity at the same time could be trouble. Will be doing LT pace work as opposed to MP over the next weeks leading to Boston since I haven’t really hit that effort yet and have more to gain from it than hitting MP. I also won’t be doing much of a taper, maybe the first week of April I’ll cut back a little. I personally find tapering to be overrated. Been super impressed with what I’ve seen from Madison. Doing that in 6 days is nuts. Have you considered just running 7 days a week? You might as well at that point.
Probably won’t post here every week to give an update, but I’ll try to post every two weeks or if something crazy happens. This was my second week doing a workout. This weeks workout went a lot better than last week. Did 10 miles at 6:19 on the roads which felt pretty easy (to my surprise) and got a fastish 2:30 LR in during a snow storm. It also will be my 2nd week over 60 and my 5th over 50. Not the best, but waaaaay better than the build leading to my debut. I don’t plan on going higher than ~65 per week until after Boston. I’m concerned that jacking mileage up and intensity at the same time could be trouble. Will be doing LT pace work as opposed to MP over the next weeks leading to Boston since I haven’t really hit that effort yet and have more to gain from it than hitting MP. I also won’t be doing much of a taper, maybe the first week of April I’ll cut back a little. I personally find tapering to be overrated.
Been super impressed with what I’ve seen from Madison. Doing that in 6 days is nuts. Have you considered just running 7 days a week? You might as well at that point.
MMC - You're certainly smart to ramp up mileage slowly. Assuming you enjoy the mileage you can safely be a lot higher in a few years. With your times at the shorter distances sub 2:50 should be doable with your current training and the sky's the limit if you ever get up to high mileage.
I try to get my running done in 6 days just to minimize the impact on the family. I certainly could run on Sunday too but that means I'm either getting up super early (again) or fitting it around whatever else we are doing.
Madison your training impresses me. you'll be running sub 2:30 in a couple more cycles at your rate. Back in the old sub 2:45 competitive jerks there was one guy started at 3:06 got down to a 1:09 half and a 2:28 marathon. He also lost like 20lbs during the transition
Madison your training impresses me. you'll be running sub 2:30 in a couple more cycles at your rate.
Back in the old sub 2:45 competitive jerks there was one guy started at 3:06 got down to a 1:09 half and a 2:28 marathon. He also lost like 20lbs during the transition
Slammin/Nimmals (just realized Slammin is Nimmals backwards . . . ) - Thanks - we'll see. I really enjoy running and I do think I can keep improving for a couple more cycles. It's been a while since I've been able to string together 2+ cycles without issue. Your 50k was quite impressive - was that even a goal race?
JMac- My metatarsal pain is back after my MP run. Sh*t.
5k- 18:55 (2018) 10K- 39:04 (2017) Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)
powered by plants
Steve - Speaking of factory farming, I've cut down on my meat consumption by at least 50% over the past year, 75% if you just look at land-based. I'm not sure I'll make it all the way to vegetarian, but I'm trying. One thing I struggle with is quality days. Since I run at night, I find I need something more protein heavy at lunch to get through the next 7 hours before my run. Tofu isn't seeming to cut it.
Living in NYC having access to places like Whole Foods you have a huge selection of plant-based proteins. Try some stuff. Seitan is probably my favorite. I don't eat tofu more than once or twice a week either. There are als good plant protein powders (Sunwarrior is my choice) that are good for adding to smoothies.
5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)
*downhill AF
Captain Obvious - Nice 50 mile week in the ice. How did the double races go?
Weather - badass week
Nimmals - Laura Muir just raced like it didn't matter what tactic the others used she was going to torch them, either sit and kick or lead them out and smother them. She's a hero already. Chirs O'hare had a great run to be the meat in an Ingebrigtsen sandwich in the 3000.
- That 50k result is pure quality with a sore foot.
- thanks for the offer of Boston company, I might well do that. After my half this weekend I definitely appreciate an honest assessment of where I'm at from someone like you who has the experience and Boston knowledge.
JMac - my plan at the moment is to fully commit to the half (I'll only hold back a bit if the weather sucks), I'll not taper much.
JT - LOL at 'slow-ass'. Please don't give in to peer pressure, you're killing it with consistency.
Upcoming; 14th Sep Scottish veterans XC trials, 289th Sep Great Scottish Run 1/2, 12th October TAMA half marathon, 27th October Leeds Abbey dash 10k
Honestly, the double racing was really not too bad. They were two tiny races (under 170 combined), so I ended up being up near the front. Happily, I wasn't solo! Ended up racing one kid in the 5K pretty well and got by him with a mile to go and ran hard. 10K I ended up drafting one guy for 5 and a half miles - every time he would slow down, I'd attempt to respond and he'd immediately pick back up. I suspect it was a little annoying for him, but also nice to have a guy to run with. Times ended up being 19:40, 40:57 - I was aiming for sub 60 combined, so I missed that by about 40 seconds.
The run home after the 10k was pretty sluggish - I started to bonk hard with three miles to go, so I did briefly stop for nutrition.
Madison, what race are you running this weekend?
Sling: Hope your foot behaves!
Nimmals: Awesome 50K time!!
JT: Based on how I felt during some of these recent workouts I'd gauge my ideal world MP right around your suggested pace. It's really hard to heat grade these with how much warm and muggy weather I have to run in constantly as those recent workouts pretty much turned into race efforts towards the end. Other variable is the lack of rolling terrain which I think I have trained for in some of my other runs and/or workouts so thinking I'm about ready. This is a big week on the schedule as I have a 4 X 2T planned tomorrow in the cold and wind (even low 40's), but then I have my peak marathon paced workout over the weekend on top of the most volume I plan to run this cycle (low 90's) so that should be a good indicator.
1mile: 4:46 (12/20) | 5K: 15:57 (3/21) | 10K: 33:40 (4/20) | 15K 51:43 (4/21) | HM: 1:15:03 (12/20) | FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)
Also, what is "OC spray"?
Oleoresin Capsicum is the active ingredient in pepper spray. Please don't consider pepper spraying yourself after a bad race, it will likely have no beneficial impact on the outcome of your future races.
All - Hello, finally back to running 60-70ish mpw after dealing with Lyme Disease symptoms and not running for about 6 months. My plan is to stay around 70mpw and finish out this cycle and run Boston. I am pretty close to getting back into sub-3 shape again. I was in really good shape last year (about 2:55ish) and ended up with a 3:04:01 after a bathroom break and some hypothermia symptoms.
https://www.strava.com/athletes/2507437
PR's - 5K - 17:57 (2017) | 10K - 38:06 (2016) | 13.1 1:23:55 (2019) | 26.2 2:58:46 (2017)
2020 Goals - Sub-2:55 Marathon Up Next: TBD, Boston on 9/14?
Sling - it flared up a tiny bit for me a couple of weeks ago, but went away pretty quickly. Hope you have the same outcome. Have you kept up with the pads? I took them out of my running shoes but still use them in dress shoes and walking around sneakers.
Steve - So far, all of my experiences with seitan have been very positive! Really like them in burritos. I wish more food places had it as a protein choice, rather than having to prepare yourself (I'm lazy and don't cook).
Fin - same plan for me, no taper. May front load the week. I'm curious to see how you recover from your half. I really want to get in another workout 4 days after my half but I know that can be impossible.
Weather - If you can average 5:45 or less for that 4x2 workout, I think you can feel confident in your MP work.
Fly - Edited to add welcome back! Good to see you back to normal mileage.
Welcome back Fly! Glad to hear the Lyme disease is behind you now. I'll put you down on the page 1 table for Boston. Any goal for that?
Jayluf: I'm guessing the HM last weekend was a DNS due to illness?
I'd like to touch on nutrition, since it came up this week. My discussion is around marathon nutrition itself.
As some of you now, stomach issues are my main race demon. I've never had to run to the port-a-potty, but I've had multiple issues with severe cramping, bad stitches (similar to cramping, but different spots), or nausea at the end of races. I've been able to battle the nausea by taking Nauzene tablets within the last 15 minutes of any race. I still haven't been able to deal with the cramps.
These cramps impact me a lot more in the marathon than other races. I can still get stitches, but they're more manageable. My cramping, I imagine, has to do with the nutrition required during the race, which is where this topic comes in.
For my first 3 marathons, I've done the following:
Gels: 6, 12, and 18, always with water
Gatorade: 3, 9, 15, 21(if I can stomach the last one)
Additional water: taken as needed for hot marathons (my first 2) or if I feel like previous stations were low in liquids in the cup
For my two 12 @ MP runs this cycle, I've run with 2 gels and 2 Gatorades (e.g. gels at miles 4/10, gatorade at miles 1/7), and I'm still getting bad cramping, so I'm starting to think this is something I need to address and not something I can train through. I'm contemplating two different things: 1) just using Gatorade throughout and ditching the gels or 2) still using both, but going down to 2 gels and spreading them out more while reducing the Gatorade input
So here are some questions for you guys, and any thoughts you have on my situation would be great, especially anyone else that has dealt with stomach issues during racing.
1) What's your fueling strategy? Have you tried different strategies and found more/less success?
2) Has anybody tried a Gatorade only strategy, or maybe a gel only strategy with water?
3) Do you think I would be good with just 2 gels and water only, or should I try 2 gels and still try to get some Gatorade in?
4) Any other thoughts/comments