2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 288 times)

    That seems high. Is this theory outlined anywhere? I would like to know what assumptions they used, etc.

     

     So Maurtens theory says a 170lb marathoner running 3 hours will need Maurtens gels every 30 minutes (6 Gels)  vs a 120 lb sub 2:30 marathoner who will need gels every 20 mins (7.5 gels)  Because even though smaller he is burning at a much higher rate than a 170 lb runner running same distance at a slower pace.

     

    3K: 8:29.12 (2017)     5K: 14:56.59 (2016)     8K: 25:27 (2016)     FM: 3:00:01 (2018)

    madisonrunner


      Madison - how many calories do you think you take during a marathon?

       

      I think I take in 400-500 calories in a marathon.  For my PR marathon I carried a bottle of Maurten 320 and finished that at the 1:40 mark.  I then took Gatorade at each aid station after that.  During training runs I could get the bottle Maurten down in about an hour but at MP it's a bit tougher.

       

      The fact that CIM does not have a drink with any carbs on course I think is an enormous downside.  I'm shocked that they still do that.  When I ran CIM in 2015 I bonked big time due to lack of carbs.  I did carry gels (and practiced with them all cycle) but wasn't able to get enough of them down during the race.  I don't see the point to a drink with electrolytes but no carbs.  It's significantly easier to carry electrolyte pills with you than carbs.

      Marathon PR:  2:37:22 (2018)  Goal Race:  Milwaukee Marathon 4/6/19

      Brewing Runner


      Cat Disliker

        I'd like to touch on nutrition, since it came up this week. My discussion is around marathon nutrition itself.

         

        As some of you now, stomach issues are my main race demon. I've never had to run to the port-a-potty, but I've had multiple issues with severe cramping, bad stitches (similar to cramping, but different spots), or nausea at the end of races. I've been able to battle the nausea by taking Nauzene tablets within the last 15 minutes of any race. I still haven't been able to deal with the cramps.

         

        These cramps impact me a lot more in the marathon than other races. I can still get stitches, but they're more manageable. My cramping, I imagine, has to do with the nutrition required during the race, which is where this topic comes in.

         

        For my first 3 marathons, I've done the following:

         

        Gels: 6, 12, and 18, always with water

        Gatorade: 3, 9, 15, 21(if I can stomach the last one)

        Additional water: taken as needed for hot marathons (my first 2) or if I feel like previous stations were low in liquids in the cup

         

        For my two 12 @ MP runs this cycle, I've run with 2 gels and 2 Gatorades (e.g. gels at miles 4/10, gatorade at miles 1/7), and I'm still getting bad cramping, so I'm starting to think this is something I need to address and not something I can train through. I'm contemplating two different things: 1) just using Gatorade throughout and ditching the gels or 2) still using both, but going down to 2 gels and spreading them out more while reducing the Gatorade input

         

        So here are some questions for you guys, and any thoughts you have on my situation would be great, especially anyone else that has dealt with stomach issues during racing.

         

        1) What's your fueling strategy? Have you tried different strategies and found more/less success?

        2) Has anybody tried a Gatorade only strategy, or maybe a gel only strategy with water?

        3) Do you think I would be good with just 2 gels and water only, or should I try 2 gels and still try to get some Gatorade in?

        4) Any other thoughts/comments

         

        In case a slower less experienced runner can offer some experience and advice...

         

        I used Gatorade gels and Gatorade sports drink for a Chicago. I got stomach cramps in training and in the race. I was told it was probably too much sugar because the gels are supposed to be taken with water. If you stick with Gatorade and gels try mixing in water for one of the runs. It might require running with two water bottles, or ditching one on your loop and picking it up after, or stuffing it in your shorts. The water might help dilute the sugar. I have eliminated Gatorade gels from nutrition because I can’t buy them locally and it’s easy to blame them for my stomach issues. Currently using Honey Stingers and previously used GU. Never had a problem with either. I got cramps from NUUN even diluted to half strength for my first CIM. The next year (3:13 on a 3:20 goal then aiming for 3:15 5 days before the race, 10 minute PR) I did GU and water. No memories of stomach issues. I do remember being sore but that could have been the result of a PR. I was around 165 lbs on race day.

        1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

        5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

        10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

        Half: 1:34:26 (2016)

        Marathon 3:13:20 (2016)

        Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

         

        2019 Goal: Get into the 4/20/20 marathon

           

          My understanding is that gels and Gatorade are a bad combination when taken together (just too much electrolytes/sugar for the amount of water) and I can see how there might still be some issue when they are separated.

           

          I would experiment first with just one or the other - my preference would be for gels, just because you can always carry those; for Gatorade, you're dependent on whether the race offers it.  And also because Gatorade makes me sick.  (many people have issues with Gatorade, due to the high fructose corn syrup)

           

          Also play with different gels - many people that I know tolerate one brand well, and others less so.  For myself, I really do best with GU, and have had explosive results with others.  But I know others who love SIS, or Honey Stinger, or etc....

           

          Why can you only carry two gels?  I carry many more, and I'm fairly certain I'm smaller than you (no insult intended - it's just that at 5'4" I'm shorter than most)

           

          For myself, I rely on plain water and GU brand gels.  My gel and water strategy is to get in as many as I can during a marathon to keep the tank topped off.  I took 9 gels during CIM, believe it or not.   Who knows if I needed that many, but I could handle them, so why not.

           

          My 2 cents here...100% agree with Darkwave. Gels and Gatorade are a bad combo.  You don’t want to mix sugars (fructose vs glucose/dectrose).

           

          What works well for me is safety pinning gu’s on the outside of the shorts and the tucking them in. I’ll usually do two on the front that way.  Between that and one in each hand, I can easily handle 4 gu’s.  Gu’s and gels are specific to personal taste ( consistently and type). I’ve alternated between caffeinated gu’s in the past but just stick with what I like (lemon-line sublime).  The last few marathons, I never took the Gatorade and I felt better stomach-wise.

            Decent week. Felt run down for most of it. Did an LT workout Tuesday (40 minutes WU 4x1600 with 400 recovery jog 5:48,30,37,46 on the roads and a 20 min CD) and did a 21.7 LR this morning. I didn’t fuel during the run and managed to average close to my PR marathon pace for this on a hilly route. Expect to be about 65 again for the week after a 2x30 minute double tomorrow.

             

            Next week I’ll prob do 2x3200 at LT with a  40-50 minute WU and CD to make it 90 minutes total. I won’t be doing another 2:30:00 LR this cycle. Plan to be about 2 hours next weekend at a similar pace to this weekend. Shooting for the same mileage.

             

            BTW I am glad the mikes went after me for my PR; it’s been the motivation I need to get out there!

            3K: 8:29.12 (2017)     5K: 14:56.59 (2016)     8K: 25:27 (2016)     FM: 3:00:01 (2018)

            JTReeves


              Fin: How are you feeling? Hopefully you got over the cold quickly and are still on for your half tomorrow. Better to get the obligatory cold now than the week before Boston.

               

              MMC: Really strong week, and I'm glad you are motivated. You have huge potential. There's a guy about your age in CT, who runs (and usually wins) most of the local races around here, maybe you even know him or have run against him at some point. Anyway, he ran a 2:28 at the NJ marathon last year, and his 5k PR is slower than yours at 15:38. Like others have said the sky is the limit for you.

              5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

              2019 races: Athens Ohio Marathon (April 14); Erie Marathon (Sept. 8)

              JMac11


                MMC - I agree with JT about your potential. Just a question of mileage for you. I know you were drawn in for other reasons, but glad to have you here. Also, Mikkey is always great motivation, he tried to move me down the Boston list and basically told Weather that he is soft.

                 

                Weather - crazy good run again today. I really hope you can do well with the rolling hills in Boston given the flat training in Florida.

                 

                Fin - Good luck! I know you have a cold, but hopefully you feel a bit better

                 

                Me - finally put together 2 weeks in a row that were good. I failed during my tempo attempt on Tuesday. It concerns me that I can’t get these LT workouts done, but on the other hand, I’m getting good long runs in and good MP work, so who knows where it’ll leave me for Boston. Today’s long run was just one of those where I let the pace take me wherever it did, rather than actively push or hold back. I worked my way down to sub 7:00 for the final 10 miles, which was nice.

                 

                NYC Half this weekend will give me a good idea of where I am at. A little far away, but already predicting head winds the whole time, just like expected. NYRR really needs to get their shit together and reverse the course, why have a course that runs almost directly into the prevailing wind direction that time of year? At least easterly winds are not the prevailing wind direction in Boston (that’s not saying it’s not possible, just the least likely wind direction of all).

                 

                Weekly Summary
                Monday, Mar 04, 2019 thru Sunday, Mar 10, 2019

                <tfoot> </tfoot>
                Day Miles Pace Description Egain Link
                Mon 8.0 7:44 Evening Run 389 strava
                Tue 14.3 7:29 Evening Run 427 strava
                Wed 5.8 8:12 Evening Run 204 strava
                Thu 9.7 8:01 Evening Run 180 strava
                Fri 7.9 7:38 Evening Run 384 strava
                Sat 22.0 7:11 Lunch Run 1125 strava
                  67.7 7:34   2709

                5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

                 

                Next Race: Boston (4/15/19) 

                steve_


                powered by plants

                  NYC Half this weekend will give me a good idea of where I am at. A little far away, but already predicting head winds the whole time, just like expected. NYRR really needs to get their shit together and reverse the course, why have a course that runs almost directly into the prevailing wind direction that time of year? At least easterly winds are not the prevailing wind direction in Boston (that’s not saying it’s not possible, just the least likely wind direction of all).

                  Yeah, that would be nice, but it'll never happen.  They changed the course to avoid having tens of thousands of runners finishing in FiDi, Prospect Park is basically the same.  Remember, the Brooklyn Half used to start in Coney Island and finish in PPk until they realized there isn't the space.  The NYC Half course now sucks.  It's bad enough that we have a tougher than normal major marathon course, it was nice to have a fast half course.  Not sure what other finish locations can handle that many people without at the same time crippling the city.

                  5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                  *downhill AF

                  steve_


                  powered by plants

                    I haven't been posting my weeks lately, I guess I'll get back to that.  I ran my 3rd 5k in 4 weekends yesterday in 18:03.  My progression in the three races went 18:16, 18:12, 18:03.  I'm pretty happy.  These are the 5th, 4th and 3rd fastest 5ks I've run.  I really wanted to get under 18 yesterday.  The race was on the boardwalk by my house, but I ran all alone after the turnaround at 2 miles.  My splits were 5:46, 5:49, 5:50.  That last mile really, really hurt, but I guess that's the price you pay in a 5k, a lower quantity of pain, but a higher quality.  That was the only hard running I did this week.  I have an easy 16 to do today which will end me at 86 for the week.  I'm not racing again until possibly the end of the month or mid-April.  Hopefully I'll get those last few seconds to take down that 5k PR.

                    5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                    *downhill AF

                    Swim5599


                      JMAC I wouldn’t worry to much about the LT s the fitness sure looks like its there

                       

                      MMC looks good.  Oh to have some of your PR s

                       

                      89.7 this week

                      mon 8 with strides 8:15

                      tue 8 with strides

                      wed AM 9.5 with 35 min at 6:22

                            PM 10.5 with 6x5:00 at 5:45

                      thurs 8 8:23

                      fri AM 9.3 with 35 min at 6:25

                        PM 10.4 with 4x8:30 at 5:52

                      sat 8 8:15

                      sun 18 as 70 min easy then 3x17:00 at 6:08,  then cool down

                       

                      most volume I’ve done in a given week In the 5:45-6:08 range

                      HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

                      slingrunner


                        Steve- Nice steady improvements with the 5ks.  Hard to race alone.

                        JMac- how was the half?

                        Swim- lots of high quality in the week with 89+.  Sounds like positive feedback.

                         

                        68 so far here.  I'm supposed to do 70, and I haven't missed any mileage yet this cycle, so stubborn me needs to get 2 more at some point.

                         

                        Week included a decent amount of hill work, and a 12 w/7@tempo.  I did a conservative 6:31 on the treadmill and survived.

                         

                        All this gu talk inspired me, and I got down my first complete gu ever in 8 years of racing.  The consistency of it makes me gag.  Had to come to a complete stop and hold my nose, but got it down.  I also bought two Maurten gels to experiment with for Boston.  I'm still not confident I'm going to be able to get a gu down while running at a fast pace, even if I stop to do it.

                        5k- 18:55 (2018)    10K- 39:04 (2017)    Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)

                        finbad


                          MMC - strong week

                          JMac - great doubling up on solid weeks, just the right time

                           

                          My half today was an absolute shit-show. I had to take Friday and Saturday off due to being sick so should have sat it out but I'm stubborn. Forecast said cold and a bit rainy but there was a blizzard as we were bussed to the start and about 10cm of slush underfoot. About half the runners pulled out with many just not starting, I (an idiot) pressed on in my vest. Rain/sleet and slight headwind throughout and just couldn't get the heel lift to get a proper rhythm going from about mile 3. Had to stop for a dump in a Starbucks at mile 8 (lucky them). Just ran it in after that to a finish time of about 1:21. Had to ask a stranger to open my car door at the end as my hands stopped working. As a silver lining - I didn't run fast enough to impair my training at all this week. It was a bit of a confidence dunt and leads me to think that the 2:45 bus is my correct move for Boston.

                           

                          I guess this was perfect training for Boston (2018)

                          Upcoming; 31st March Alloa half marathon Tom Scott 10 mile, 15th April Boston marathon, 3rd May Scottish 5k champs, 9th May Helensburgh 10k, 16th May Dumbarton 10k, 26th May Shettleston 10k, 1st June Killearn trail 10, 2nd June Milngavie trail race


                          Elite Jogger

                            MMC - I agree with JT about your potential. Just a question of mileage for you. I know you were drawn in for other reasons, but glad to have you here. Also, Mikkey is always great motivation, he tried to move me down the Boston list and basically told Weather that he is soft.

                             

                             

                            You know as well as I do that his first post on the thread was stating that not listening to music or watching TV during a long run on the treadmill makes you mentally tougher...which amused me, especially as he’s got no experience at long distance running. That’s great if he’s more motivated because of what some guys say on the internet. I personally don’t get his training....a 4x1600 LT workout with recoveries doesn’t make any sense to me. But good luck to him. 👍

                             

                            Flyrunnr - Good to see you back...your training has been looking very solid this year. 👍

                             

                            Steve - Congrats on a nice run of 5k races!  I’m guessing your strongest distance is around 15k/half.

                            5k - 18:29 (2018)   10k - 37:53 (2018)   Half - 1:22:06 (2017)   Full - 2:51:32 (2016)

                             

                            Next Up:  Brighton Mary - 14th April.    London Mary - 28th April

                            JMac11


                              Fin - that sounds awful. You're right that there's a silver lining here on not wrecking yourself in a race. I enjoyed your recap of the race, hilarious from the outside looking in. I wouldn't read too much into your fitness from a race in those conditions. I still think you're in low 2:40s shape.

                               

                              Steve - yeah they'll never do anything about it because they're obviously looking for the masses here, not us folk. It's fine, I'm just not going to run it again no matter how well it goes. I'd rather run the shitshow that is Brooklyn. You're also right that it sucks that our major marathon is not an easy one, I wish we had something that was flat and a good time of year. Do you ever race on Long Island? I find that GLIRC puts on pretty good races for 5Ks and 10Ks.

                               

                              Swim - I still find your weeks amazing. Definitely one of the hardest working guys on here, keep it up.

                               

                              Sling - half is this upcoming weekend. You definitely need to find some sort of nutrition that works for you. I use Clif, as I hated the viscosity of Gu.

                              5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

                               

                              Next Race: Boston (4/15/19) 

                              JTReeves


                                JMac: Nice week and big long run to finish it off. I think you'll be in good shape to hang with Fin and Weather at Boston; though Weather may be ahead of you guys based on what he threw down yesterday.

                                 

                                Swim: That sure is a huge volume at fast pace. You seem to thrive off of those doubles with both quality. Are you zeroing in on a goal time for the Eugene half?

                                 

                                Sling: Nice job getting the miles in. I also decided to get some Maurten gels based on the positive reviews of them here.

                                 

                                Fin: What doesn't kill us....Kudos for toughing it out but not killing yourself; good that you'll be able to get right back at it this week. Any race where you have to drop a deuce midway through is probably not a good one!

                                 

                                My week had a lousy ending. Due to the crap weather here today (snow which turned to ice, then rain) I started my long run on the treadmill, but after about 2 miles it just stopped. Stepped off and started it up again, and the belt ran fine but as soon as I stepped on it the belt stopped moving (even though the console showed it is still running). It's like the mill was telling me to f*ck off and go outside. So I went out in the mess, thinking I would do 20 miles and quickly realizing that would not happen and ended up getting in a slippery, muddy, soaked 12. Until I get the mill fixed it will be back to all outside running for me. Maybe that's a good thing; I was probably getting a bit too comfortable with it the past few weeks.

                                 

                                Weekly Summary
                                Monday, Mar 04, 2019 thru Sunday, Mar 10, 2019

                                <tfoot> </tfoot>
                                Day Miles Pace Description Link
                                Tue 9.3 7:47 Morning Run on TM strava
                                Tue 1.1 8:56 Missed miles/didn't start watch strava
                                Wed 10.2 8:06 Morning Run on TM strava
                                Thu 14.8 7:08 TM: 3 x 15 min @ 6:04, 5 min recovery strava
                                Fri 12.2 8:24 Afternoon Run strava
                                Sat 6.3 8:42 Lunch Run strava
                                Sun 2.1 11:08 Lunch Run/ TM died strava
                                Sun 12.4 8:06 Lunch Run in rainy slushy mess strava
                                  68.4 8:03    

                                5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

                                2019 races: Athens Ohio Marathon (April 14); Erie Marathon (Sept. 8)