Forums >Racing>2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread
Wow talking about someone IN THE THIRD PERSON, knowing full well they'll see it... what an ALPHA! No doubt Mikkey took his Red Pill this morning! Will you coach me?
Coach Mikkey, what should I have done in between those reps? Just stood around? Done jumping jacks? Snow angels? Should I have just done a continuous 6400m LT my first real workout back in months? I am open to suggestions as I don't have any long distance experience; I apologize for my ignorance! Do you think I should try to read some more Runner's World articles or buy some couch to marathon programs?
All joking aside, I am a little confused about your recoveries comment. I only had to go back to 2/5 on your log to see you doing "Tempo Intervals" with recoveries (slow intervals sandwiched between quicker ones). I am not fit enough to do continuous LT (5:35-45 based off of my Feb 9 Mile) yet and I won't be this cycle, and for that reason I am doing shorter LT reps.
If you're going to criticize someone's training, you should at least have training to back it up. I know that you probably shot off the message below feeling good about yourself after posting a decent LR after your shoddy at best training the past few weeks; string a few good weeks together and maybe I'll listen to what you have to say.
To everyone else, thank you for being supportive. Keep up the good work!
You know as well as I do that his first post on the thread was stating that not listening to music or watching TV during a long run on the treadmill makes you mentally tougher...which amused me, especially as he’s got no experience at long distance running. That’s great if he’s more motivated because of what some guys say on the internet. I personally don’t get his training....a 4x1600 LT workout with recoveries doesn’t make any sense to me. But good luck to him. 👍
3K: 8:29.12 (2017) 5K: 14:56.59 (2016) 8K: 25:27 (2016) 15K: 53:46 (2022) HM: 75:41 (2022) FM: 2:43:17 (2022)
Mother of Cats
- yeah they'll never do anything about it because they're obviously looking for the masses here, not us folk. It's fine, I'm just not going to run it again no matter how well it goes. I'd rather run the shitshow that is Brooklyn. You're also right that it sucks that our major marathon is not an easy one, I wish we had something that was flat and a good time of year. Do you ever race on Long Island? I find that GLIRC puts on pretty good races for 5Ks and 10Ks.
Add me to those frustrated. I would LOVE to come up to NYC and do that half-marathon. But I'm not going to do so until/unless they change the course dramatically.
For me, as an out of towner who is only somewhat familiar with NYC, the old course was also much easier logistically - I could just stay in the Financial District and take the subway to the race start in the morning. To an out of towner, getting to Brooklyn for the start of the race just seems harder, even if perhaps it isn't in practice.
So I'll just drive down to Virginia Beach instead.
I also am sympathetic to the "our local marathon is not easy" - we have two big marathons - RNR DC and Marine Corps - and neither is a great course. Marine Corps is a better course than RNR DC, but that's a low standard. The RNR DC marathon course is just awful.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
JT: Sucks about the treadmill. Hope the weather improves enough shortly to get outside consistently again. Nice week BTW!
Fin: Strong race irregardless of the result! Those conditions sound absolutely brutal to me and just to be able to mentally finish a race like that has to help for an upcoming marathon. Hope you feel better soon though.
MMC: very strong week. Like others have suggested lots of potential there! Likes like the speed is already there.
Steve: Congrats on the 5K! Looks like some great splits too.
JMac: I wouldn't worry too much since you seem to have that MP and LR pace dialed down. Nice to get 2 strong back to back weeks as well. HM will be a nice indicator, but I wouldn't fret too much especially if it is into the wind the whole time! At least it sounds like a big enough race where you can run in a group? Thanks for the kudos on my workout yesterday. As you mentioned it would be nice to get some rolling terrain on some of my LR's, but that's really hard to do here without getting very repetitive. I have been supplementing EZ hills and some of workouts on hills each week though to try and help out.
Swim: Awesome week yet again. Liking the amount and pace of your quality miles.
Sling: nice looking week and I have similar thoughts with the GU. I only took 1 during my workout yesterday and yuck!
Me: Had by far my best and certainly my biggest week pre-Boston hitting both a 4 X 2 tempo session (solidly in the 5:40's) on Wednesday and then had my biggest Daniels mixed M/T pace run yesterday getting in 15+ miles at goal pace or faster. Think I averaged somewhere just north of 6 flat pace on the 15.7 Q miles, but I did stop and reset (short fluid breaks) a few times with the warmth which likely helped. Not gonna lie but the final 2-3 miles felt more like a race effort especially with the sun and temps creeping up, but I don't know how you avoid a race effort in that kind of workout at the end of your biggest week Only downside for Boston pacing is this LR was pancake flat, but I have some hill work prescribed in the next 2-3 weeks to help on that angle. This week also served as my highest volume and I'll be slowly backing down on the miles in the next few weeks.
Weekly Summary Monday, Mar 04, 2019 thru Sunday, Mar 10, 2019
1mile: 4:46 (12/20) | 5K: 15:57 (3/21) | 10K: 33:40 (4/20) | 15K 51:43 (4/21) | HM: 1:15:03 (12/20) | FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)
Damn, 4E + 8.5M + 1T + 4.2M + 1T + 1M is not easy. Good stuff
Mmmm Bop
Aww bless
I didn’t get the 4x1600 LT because it was only about 23min total + recoveries which would lower the overall HR. A 4 miler at a slower true LT pace would’ve been better. I’m certainly no coach...but I’m not a cheerleader either.
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
I shoot off regardless of whether I’ve just run a good LR or not....btw, I’m just coming back from an injury, which explains the shoddy training the past few weeks. 👍
I didn’t get the 4x1600 LT because it was only about 23min total + recoveries which would lower the overall HR. A 4 miler at a slower true LT pace would’ve been better.
I've seen variants of LT - continuous or segments with breaks - sometimes the breaks are very short, and sometimes they are longer. For example, my coach will prescribe "cruise intervals" of 3200m with 800m recovery, which is inconsistent with the definition of cruise intervals I've read elsewhere. (I don't personally call them cruise intervals - I just think of them as a variant of an interval workout)
One thing I've noted - it seems that people with more natural speed seem to gravitate towards and also benefit from some variant of LT intervals; while those of us who are a bit more "steady" (trying to think of a non-judgmental word) prefer and also benefit more from straight continuous tempo work.
From what I've seen, those who gravitate towards LT intervals generally tend to not perform as well at the marathon (relative to their shorter distance PRs) as those who do straight tempos. But IMHO, that doesn't necessarily mean that runners in the first category would perform better doing straight tempos. It may be that they are training in the way that maximizes their performance, but just that they're always going to have more of a drop off as the distance lengthens.
I raced a 5k yesterday and was nowhere near my goal of sub 16. Course, conditions, and competition all were not ideal but my 16:48 shows I'm not in 16:00 shape. Full race report below (copied from my log) in case anyone is interested. The rest of my week was good - 95 miles including a VO2max workout (5x800m in 2:36, 2:36, 2:34.5, 2:34.5, 2:32.5). Next week is my final big week (102 miles) before starting a 3 week taper.
Fin - Too bad about the race. I don't think you can take much knowledge away from your performance in those conditions.
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5k Race Report
The goal for this was to run 5:10/mile and break 16:00. The weather was not great - 32 degrees with a stiff wind. I led the whole way (2nd was several minutes behind) and felt like I was pushing the entire time but just wasn't able to go faster. The footing was okay - roads that were not smooth but only had a few icy patches. I wore my blue hat, UA gloves, and a singlet and short shorts. Into the wind my hands did get pretty frozen but otherwise I was comfortable and not overheating. The weather and course and competition certainly was not ideal for running fast but I think this shows that I'm not in 16:00 shape.
The first mile is with the wind or a crosswind with rolling hills. I took off at what I thought was a hard pace (with the wind) and expected after a few hundred meters to see 4:5x on my watch for my pace. It showed 5:15. I was able to come through mile 1 at 5:10 just as planned. Mile 2 has a couple of big hills and is directly into the wind about half the time (other half is a cross-wind). I was pushing hard but couldn't even break 5:30. I kept pushing on mile 3 (mainly flat with a crosswind) and tried to sprint to the finish.
After the race I felt okay but it wasn't like I could have run another 5k at that pace.
Madison - sorry about the race. I do agree that there's a big gap from 16:48 to sub-16. But I also think that you're a lot closer to 16 than this race reflects, given all the conditions.
Steve - oh so achingly close to sub-18 and your PR. I do think that if you can get in a race with someone to work with in the last mile, that will make all the difference.
Jmac - for the tempo failures, have you thought about backing off the pace a touch? To me, tempo is an effort, not a pace. Furthermore, it's an effort level that should be approached from underneath, if that makes sense, because you're trying to gently nudge it up.
Finbad - that race sounds awful. I don't think you can take any read on your fitness from that.
JTReeves - some days the universe just decides to mess with you.
Sling - somehow I think GU may not be the right choice for you.... What flavor were you trying? I can't stand some of their flavors, while others (especially the less sweet ones) really hit the spot.
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My week: 60 miles, 16 "miles" of pool-running, and 3000 yards of swimming: M : Upper body weights/core and 8 "miles" pool-running in the morning. Foam rolling at night.T: 12 miles, including a track workout of 2x800, 1600, 2x800, 2x200 in 3:06, 3:02, 6:09, 3:00, 2:52, 41, 40. Followed with leg strengthwork and 1000 yards recovery swimming. Foam rolling at night.W: 8 miles very easy to yoga (9:06), plus drills and strides, and then yoga. Followed with another 4 miles very easy (9:04). Foam rolling at night.Th: Upper body weights/core and 8 "miles" pool-running in the morning. Foam rolling at night.F: 14 miles, including an 8K tempo on the track in 32:36 (6:38/6:32/6:31/6:30/6:25). Followed with leg strengthwork and 1000 yards recovery swimming. Foam rolling at night.Sa: 10 miles very easy (8:49), plus drills, 4 hill sprints, upper body weights/core. Foam rolling at night.Su: 12 miles progressive, split as first 4 averaging 8:46, next 4 averaging 7:21, last 4 averaging 6:51. Followed with light leg strengthwork and 1000 yards recovery swimming. Foam rolling in afternoon.
I have the Shamrock half-marathon next Sunday, so starting to taper up for that. I had 83 minutes as my goal (may have even said "sub-83") but I don't think I'm quite there yet. If I had to guess, I'd say I'm in 84-85 fitness right now. So there's some chance of eking out a PR (current is 84:22). We'll see. Shamrock is a ridiculously fast course - perhaps the fastest record eligible half-marathon course in the US (it's a lollypop shaped out and back - very flat, with no sharp turns) and I have historically run really well down there. So...we'll see.
[as always, I'll be racing with my watch face obscured, so I won't know splits until I finish. So...if I'm under- or over-estimating my fitness here, it won't affect my race performance.]
I’ve always been a fan of long LT intervals....a bit faster than MP pace. I just don’t think what he’s doing is the best midweek marathon training workout.
I wouldn’t say you aren’t in sub 16 shape. From what I have seen you are more than capable. You’re training pretty intensely and it’s hard to race well when you have a lot of miles on your legs and you had a hard workout earlier in the week. After your marathon take a few weeks down and try doing some critical velocity pace stuff and see how it goes
Now if you had just said that I would have been much more open to hearing what you had to say
RIP Milkman
JT - I declare winter is over! I put away my snow boots and extra warm clothing. I refuse to take them back out. That's how seasons work right, you can just force the issue? Anyway, how does one get a treadmill fixed, or do you just have to buy a new one?
Weather - I assume your water breaks were only 10-15 seconds? If so, that's still a great workout. I do worry about you on hills, but otherwise, you cannot knock out a cycle anymore than you have. Just stay healthy from now until the start and you'll do great.
MMC - I think the idea behind breaking up your LT workouts into 1 or 2 mile repeats is that you can get more miles at that pace than you could if you ran them straight. However, by running only 4 reps, you effectively just ran a broken up 20 minute tempo run, which is a bread and butter workout. You'll see a lot of folks on here doing 3x2 or 4x2 mile LT workouts specifically for that reason.
DW - I think you're the most helpful person on this board. Anyway, your comments about some people doing better with straight tempos vs. breaking it up hit home with me and my cruise interval struggles this cycle. However, I'm going to stick with them specifically because I'm struggling. Regarding your pace comment, I have a good sense of what tempo "feels" like, it's just that it feels like it goes from "comfortably hard" to "racing hard" way faster than it ever has in the past. Maybe my "feel" for the right pace is only true if I'm in peak LT form, which I'm not. Also, loved your comment about your watch face obscured. I'm a huge believer in running races by feel and not pace. Only time I react to pace in a race is if I'm going too fast. If it's too slow, so be it, my body is trying to tell me something.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Weather: What a week! I think you won the workout of the year award for that Saturday performance. That should certainly be a great confidence booster for you if you needed one!
DW: Another nice week, you are very consistent. Shamrock sounds like my kind of half! All the half courses around me are loaded with hills. The least hilly occurs 2 weeks after my April marathon so if I'm feeling up to it I may give it a go. Given that you perform well on that course, and from seeing your training I think you have an excellent shot at a new PR.
Madison: Given the wind and hills, it sounds like a tough course/day to get a PR. Plus if you hit the first mile slower than you want/need to in a 5k, it is very tough to reconcile that, at least in my limited and pathetic 5k experience. I hope you'll find a flat course and give it another go. Another short term option is to do a 5000m time trial on the track. You can choose a good weather day for it and though it is not official like a race, it can be a great confidence booster.
JMac: I hope your declaration makes winter bugger off for good! As far as the TM, I was surprised that it is still under warranty, so I can get someone to come out and look at it. But after looking online, there are a couple things I want to try first that involve adjusting the belt tension. That seems to be the most common cause of the problem mine is having. I'm not rushing to fix it though, as I really do think I was using it too much lately and getting soft. 5 weeks left to toughen up out in the elements!
2:52:16 (2018)
Darkwave: Nice week as well. Hopefully you get some get conditons for your upcoming HM!
Madison: Also think you are closer to sub 16 shape than you might realize.
JT/JMac: Thanks again for the kudos on my workout. Yes looking back that was certaintly a huge confidence booster for me! Just hoping I can hold it together and absorb some of these workouts over the next few weeks, but the workouts don't really get any bigger than that tihs cycle.. As for fluid breaks think 2 were fairly short, but one of them was a few minutes as things were getting pretty warm so I figured it was better to get in fluids and the HR reset a bit. Oh well - I figure it was still very good stimulus at something around race pace or faster for a good duration and I know I could have finished straight up if need be Also hoping my occasional hill loops like my run this morning where I occasionally hit a decent speed on the short downhill stretches will help for Boston.