2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 583 times)

JMac11


Benevolent Leader

    I am going to go back down and do his 56-70 plan if I can get healthy. For one, I can’t get up to the mileage now with my injury. But more importantly: the jump from his 56-70 to 71-85 plan is insane with workouts. More power to you Weather for completing them, but some of them are just downright ridiculous, like the one you just completed. I don’t really understand throwing T pace in the middle of M work, but so be it.

    5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

     

    Next Race: Suffolk County Half Marathon (10/27/19)

    madisonrunner


       Madison - Crazy bio. It'll be cool to follow your training. Was it just a massive step up in training that took you from struggling to break 3 again, to getting under 2:40 a year later? Something else? 


      Andres and Weather - It was a combination of things. After running 2:55 at 2002 Boston my goal changed to 2:50.  At Chicago in 2002 and again in 2004 I went out in sub 1:25 and totally bombed (3:02 and 3:10).  I had a couple of other marathons (CIM in 05, Madison in 03) where I ran 3:01 without really focused training.  I went through several years (2006-2009) where I battled injuries (mainly PF) and didn't run a lot.  Then at the end of August in 2009 I was so frustrated that I just decided to run even if it hurt.  Surprisingly this helped my PF.  The more I ran the better it felt.  Since then I've treated running injuries a bit differently than most - as long as the pain doesn't increase with each subsequent run I think I'm good to go.

       

      I ran 200+ miles each month in 2010 and 250+ each month in 2011 so certainly consistent mileage had something to do with it.  In 2011 I had perfect weather at my goal marathon and ran slightly negative splits to a 2:48.  Four weeks later was a marathon that I had won the previous year (in 2:55).  I raced it again with my only goal being to win.  I didn't wear a watch and just stuck to the guy in the lead.  We went through halfway in under 1:20 (though I didn't realize it since there were no clocks on the course).  I dropped him around mile 20 and felt great all the way to the end (2:41).  Just to prove 2:41 wasn't a fluke I signed up for CIM (which was a five weeks later).  My goal was sub 2:40 (figured it was possible since my 2:41 was on a course I'd estimate 2-3 minutes slower than CIM).  For the 3rd time that Fall I had perfect weather for a marathon and pr'd with a 2:39.

       

      So, long-winded way of saying consistent training + perfect conditions (weather, competition) led to the big improvement.

       

      Since 2011 I've had a few training cycles skipped due to injury but for the most part have been consistent (2000+ miles each year, sub 2:45 every year except 2012 where in Boston's blast furnace I ran 2:50).  I had one training cycle (2015) where I thought I was in 2:34 shape but hit the wall hard at CIM and ran 2:43 (thus my comment in the 2018 thread that if you do CIM you must carry your carbs with you as the on course sports drink is nuun which has no carbs).

      Marathon PR:  2:35:49 (2019)  Goal Races:  CIM (12/8)

      weatherboy80


        Madison: Either way quite a fantastic evolution in race times!  Ideal conditions certainly play a huge role, but it sounds like consistency was the big key.  Awesome that you could throw down those times with only a few weeks to recover as well.

         

        Jmac: Sounds like a good plan!  I also wonder if the occasional T mile inside these long M paced runs are geared more towards the elite where they need to have the capaibility to surge late in a race with whoever decides to go for it.  Not sure if they help us all that much but they give me confidence to finish out the remaining M miles even though they do hurt quite a bit.

        5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

        steve_


        powered by plants

          Yeah, I tend to agree with JMac on this.  The leap in the workouts from his lower mileage plan to his higher is dramatic to say the least.  Looking through the book (I just got the 3rd ed on Sunday) I'd attribute it to the fact that he really is writing these high mileage plans for elite runners.  I'm considering using the 5-10k plan but I'd definitely use the workouts from the lower mileage plan and just add on extra easy miles to keep my mileage where I like it.  I think a lot of folks like us tend to look at our mileage history for the marathon and think "Well, I averaged 85-90 mpw for 16 weeks before whatever PR race, so I can handle his 90+ mile program, when in reality the quality stuff he has is just so much harder than what many of us have done.

          5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

          *downhill AF

          JMac11


          Benevolent Leader

             

            Jmac:   I also wonder if the occasional T mile inside these long M paced runs are geared more towards the elite where they need to have the capaibility to surge late in a race with whoever decides to go for it.  Not sure if they help us all that much but they give me confidence to finish out the remaining M miles even though they do hurt quite a bit.

             

            I remember reading that in his book. I just don't know how to exactly adjust the workouts for the fact that we will never have to do that besides doing more continuous M paced runs of 12-14 miles, or something like 8M + 3T which teaches you to finish fast after M pace. If I ever get up to the 71-85 plan, that's probably what I'll do. As he says in his book, "know the purpose of every run." I can't define what the purpose of these mixed M and T paced runs are besides the surge concept, so I will probably eliminate them.

            5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

             

            Next Race: Suffolk County Half Marathon (10/27/19)

            steve_


            powered by plants

              I think it also helps you get used to running MP on beat up legs.  This year I had 20 milers where I would do 400m reps in the middle of it and then a 4 mile MP fast finish.  You're never going to experience running 10k at MP after 20 miles at MP in training so there have been tons of ways devised to simulate it.

              5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

              *downhill AF

              darkwave


              Mother of Cats

                I think it also helps you get used to running MP on beat up legs.  This year I had 20 milers where I would do 400m reps in the middle of it and then a 4 mile MP fast finish.  You're never going to experience running 10k at MP after 20 miles at MP in training so there have been tons of ways devised to simulate it.

                 

                I've read about one group (can't remember which) that does a segment at MP, and then stands (not jogs, stands) for about 10 minutes, before going back into MP.  Supposedly going right back into MP after stiffening up is a good simulator.

                 

                OTOH, you've got the Tinman group that supposedly doesn't do MP work...

                 

                And do you really want to experience that last 10K of the marathon any more than you have to?  Smile

                 

                ***

                 

                12 miles for me this morning, including 8 Iwo Jima hill repeats - roughly 2 minutes up, 90 second jog, 35 second stride, and a bit less than a minute back down to the start before repeating the whole thing.  Also leg strengthwork and recovery swimming.

                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                 

                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                Swim5599


                  Yeah there are no perfect ways to mimic the late stages of the marathon during WOs.  All my marathon power work during my LR s was always after 90 to 100 minutes of running.  That and just the cummalative fatigue from all the weeks work was good enough.  I was able to  desc each 10k at CIM due to it.

                  HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

                    Yeah there are no perfect ways to mimic the late stages of the marathon during WOs.

                     

                    And thank God for that, amirite? :shudders:

                    Runners run.

                    AceHarris


                      I agree there is no perfect way to simulate the last 10k of a marathon in training. I do feel like it's important to get as close as possible to simulating that feeling, though. I feel like I have really benefited from long runs of 20-23 miles with the last 5-8 miles at MP or faster (generally progressing to faster paces), particularly on weeks with quality workouts in the preceding days. As swim said, the cumulative fatigue plays a part in how the workout feels.  Reminding myself of these long run workouts during a marathon has been a big help mentally too.

                       

                      Finished 2018 with exactly 2018 miles. Definitely the most miles in a year for me that I can remember.

                       

                      Also, Happy NY and welcome to 2019! I've started the year with a 9 day streak of not running due to travel and sickness. Let's hope it improves.

                      Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 18:10 (2017), 10k: 38:25 (2017, course was 6.1), HM: 1:25:16 (2018), M: 2:57:18 (2018)


                      Elite Jogger

                         

                          

                        Mickey - where you at?

                         

                         

                         

                        I’m playing it cautiously this cycle and still focusing on strength training right now. Hopefully Feb/March will be more positive!

                         

                        mikeymike - I like your attitude and knowledge from what I’ve observed on RA. 👍

                        5k - 17:53 (2019)   10k - 37:53 (2018)   Half - 1:23:18 (2019)   Full - 2:50:43 (2019)


                        Laura

                          I promised wasn't gonna disappear this year JMAC and I meant it! LOL, just a few days late this week. My Daughter has been sick (Like Steve said, this season colds/sickness seem to be lingering longer in people!) On top of her being sick, she cut her 2 canine teeth this week. So I'm running on caffeine, and luckily also running on the high of a monster half marathon PR from last weekend.

                           

                          Last week was a good week ending on really high note to start the year off. I'm in a local small race series (Freezeroo) they're all winter races every few weeks and just make it fun low key way to get out and run hard with friends. I had one on NY Day (7.5 hilly miles), which I didn't all out race since I had the half a few days later. Ran 7 at 6:40 and then dropped the hammer to sub 6 for last half mile to blow off steam. Fun way to start the year though.

                           

                          Saturday was....epic. I say that because I really didn't expect that at all. My PR going into the half was 1:24:51 which I ran 3+ years ago before I had Hannah. I figured I was in shape for probably 1:23 high, MAYBE 1:22 high if I had a good day. It's a 4 loop course, mostly flat other than one little hill. The last 2 laps get tricky because you're weaving around other runners/walkers - though if you called out on your left they were pretty good about moving over, and I am not shy about sneaking in between people (nicely). When we started, I was with some guys for about a mile or so and then another female was on my shoulder (one other way ahead), her and I ended up running nearly the entire race together. I know who she is, and that she had much faster PR going into this than me and she probably wasn't expecting me to stay with her but I felt good and I was gonna make both of us work for it. We spent most of the race making moves and covering them, It was a huge confidence boost to truly RACE that long neck and neck with someone and be able to cover moves. Eventually she got me but I didn't even care because I knew I was in for a PR...I just didn't know how much until I rounded the last turn and saw 1:21 on the clock. Finished in 3rd with 1:21:14, all top 3 females were within 20 seconds so that was cool.

                           

                          4 Loops at 3.3ish

                          Loop 1- 20:46.0 6:21/M

                          Loop 2- 20:34.0 6:17/M

                          Loop 3- 20:03.0 6:08/M

                          Loop 4- 19:53.0 6:05/M

                          Time: 1:21:14

                           

                          My original goal was sub 1:22 for NYC Half in March as tuneup for Boston, but now coach and I are talking on knocking on 1:20 door if possible for NYC half.

                           

                          Mon: 5.2 @ 8:21 outside

                          Tues: Freezeroo Race 7.5 @6:37 + WU

                          Wed: 10.6 @ 8:04 outside + Light upper body/core work

                          Thursday: 7 @ 8:26 midday hilly & chilly / 3 @ 8:57 on mill + Strength in evening

                          Friday: 4.8 @ 8:10 + Strides outside

                          Saturday: Winter Warrior Half Marathon 1:21:14 + WU

                          Sunday: 3.4 @ 9:34 outside with a friend

                          Total: 60.1 miles

                           

                          Sorry catching up so long post!

                          Swim: I guess I forgot you lived in Flag, my best friend and her husband moved out there last year and I got to visit in the summer. It's truly amazing out there. Got to have my ass handed to me in a workout on Lake Mary Rd last July.  You're right about CIM, such a well done race. If I end up needing 2 fall fulls to stab at the trials CIM will be my late fall one for sure. Also, don't hate on the treadmill...it's a tool! Not all of us have Flag weather!

                           

                          Andres: Sounds like you're playing it smart with the body before Houston, still could be a great day. Plus you'll rebound well into whatever spring full you decide on. I was hoping to get to Houston this year to cheer as I have some athletes running but too hard with little one (we're going away for a week in Feb so trying not to take advantage of using our parents to watch her more before that). Hopefully you have some great weather, it was really nice last year if I remember correctly from friends?

                           

                          Weather: You had an outstanding 2018 (I remember you pacing your friend to sub 3 in those crazy Boston conditions...insane!), setting yourself up for awesome 2019, I'll  be chasing you down at Boston! Re: 2 mile repeats, these are the ones that scare me. For some reason 2 miles feels like forever for repeats, but they are so beneficial. Coming up for Upstate NY anytime soon, or waiting for the springtime thaw before coming back for visit?

                           

                          Darkwave: I admire your dedication to cross training and ancillary work to help avoid injury/overtraining - I see it so often that people know they are higher at risk for those things for whatever reason but still don't train accordingly and smart. Nice to see someone who gets it.

                           

                          JT: Nice week, glad the calf is behaving and it's hopefully behind you! As for Erie, yes I ran it in 2015 but have spectated it.....3 times aside from that. it's small but well done race and the course is really pretty good...flat, protected etc. My guess is I end up at Erie and CIM for 2 fall fulls this year if need be for the trials. But like I said...I'd probably come cheer either way as I know I'll have a few athletes there.

                           

                          madisonrunner- commuting mileage amazes me, it's a great way to build. I wish I had that as an option! Aside from commuting and LR on weekend, do you build in speed work with it?

                           

                          Steve: 38:05 while sick is no joke, plus like you said nice to still be up there or ahead of people who normally get you - testament to where your fitness is and what you can be capable of when 100% healthy

                           

                          Jmac: I'M HERE! Sorry you're benched at moment but like you said, were last year and came back with a killer rest of 2018 so now you just get to do the same in 2019!

                           

                          Fin: Best of luck with Boston training and coming back - honestly I think for anyone marathon training is about finding a balance of what you can do. All about starting where you are and not where you wanna be. You'll get there!

                           

                          Re Daniels Training: I do a lot of Daniels style work, and use Daniels Vdot program with my coaching. I'm actually re-reading the book right now as it's been a while. It will make you super fit like you guys said but yes gotta be careful with it. Like ANY training plan/style you really need to adjust for the individual. Like Steve mentioned taking the mileage from one but the workouts from the lower etc etc. As for the Mixed M&T workouts (Jmac) I think one of the benefits is making M feel easier. I LOVE a good wave tempo run alternating every few minutes between M&T, where M is almost a 'recovery' and makes it feel easier compared to the faster work. Or even doing 10-15 minutes at M before some interval work (or even sandwich the interval work with M). It makes M feel easier, and also teaches you to run M on tired legs. At least those are the takeaways for me, and how I look at the benefits of them and talk myself into workouts.

                          Pre-Baby PR's (all from 2015): 5k: 18:46  10k: 38:37 HM: 1:24:51 FM: 2:58:13

                          Postpartum PR's: 5k: 18:18 (2018)  HM: 1:21:14 (2019) FM: 2:57:06 (2018-12 mo PP)

                           

                          Next Up: Erie Marathon

                           

                          {Strava}{IG}

                           

                          steve_


                          powered by plants

                            Lela, congrats on the fantastic PR!  I don't know if you ran the NYC Half last year, but the course sucks now.  You can, and people certainly did, run a PR there, but the new course is quite a bit slower than the old one*.  That used to be my absolute favorite race of the year, now I don't even consider it.  Not sure if it's an option for you, but the Brooklyn Half is a much faster course (albeit at a more questionable time of year) https://www.nyrr.org/races-and-events/2019/popular-brooklyn-half/guaranteed-entry

                             

                            Also, I love your paces.  Nice to see someone who knows how to keep easy runs easy and hard runs hard.

                             

                            Regarding the concept of switching between M & T paces.  I also find myself doing a lot of runs now where 1-3 minutes of HMP is followed by 1-3 minutes of MP "recovery" as well.  That said, it's not 13 miles worth 15 weeks out from a goal race.

                             

                            *And before everyone jumps on me about how a course is so much slower than another, the old NYC Half did a loop of CPK and then ran basically downhill and/or had a tailwind for the remaining 6+ miles.  The course now crosses the Manhattan Br, runs into the wind and finishes with a lap of CPK.  Big difference.

                            5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                            *downhill AF

                            JMac11


                            Benevolent Leader

                              Lela - amazing PR. I do agree with Steve that the course is tough now. I'm going for a PR there too, but it's very likely we will be facing a headwind for most of the race. Also, finishing in Central Park seems like a nightmare. I'm not looking forward to having to run such hilly terrain over the last 2 miles or so. I'm not sure I'll run it in the future, but I had a deferred entry from last year and figured I would give it a shot.

                               

                              Steve - how are you feeling?

                               

                              Race Question - I know Madison did 2 crazy marathons in a short time span, but for normal folks, have you been able to PR a shorter distance within a relatively quick turnaround after a marathon? I'm asking because there is a half marathon 4.5 weeks after Boston that I want to run, but only if I can run well. I know that I'll be recovered enough that I won't be risking injury, but I'm curious if anyone else has done well in these types of races.

                              5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                               

                              Next Race: Suffolk County Half Marathon (10/27/19)

                              steve_


                              powered by plants

                                JMac, finally I'm feeling better.  Everyone I know who's had this flu bug has said the same thing in that it just lingers.  Wednesday's workout was the best I've had in about 4 weeks though, so hopefully that's the end of things.

                                 

                                Man, I do miss that old NYC Half course.  Running down the West Side Hwy in 2016 and 2017 there was at least a 15mph tailwind.  So nice.  Apparently NYRR felt (probably correctly) that lower Manhattan was too small to handle all the finishers so that's why they changed the course.

                                 

                                To answer your other question, 4 weeks is the best time for me following a marathon.  I ran a good Brooklyn Half 4 weeks after Boston and just PR'd in the 15k 4 weeks after Harrisburg.

                                5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                                *downhill AF