Forums >Racing>2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread
Mmmm Bop
Do we have a race report from Mikkey yet? I haven't seen it.
No report from me as I don’t have the creative skills to make a race sound that interesting 😀
I ran the Paddock Wood half in 1:23:18 yesterday, it’s the 3rd time I’ve run it and see it more as a time trial/good tempo run as it’s on country lanes and end up running large sections of it solo. In 2016 I ran it in 1:23:13 then ran London 3 weeks later in 2:51:32...BUT my average mileage back then was 76mpw and this year I’ve only averaged 53mpw. Big congrats on the Cherry Blossom PR...that sounds like a great race! Btw, my Air Relax magic boots should be arriving today. 😀
Andres - That was a fantastic run yesterday and well done getting under the hour! Was that the first time you wore the VFs? You’re a good example of running a lot of easy 8+min/miles and then smashing it on race day. 👍
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
powered by plants
Madison, Andres, DW and Mikkey: Great races. Andres, way to hang on that second half. Looking at your splits on Strava, it really looked like you were right on the edge.
My week:
M- 10 jog am, 3 jog pm
T- 11 jog
W- 3 mi easy, 2 mi LT, 1 mi easy, 2 mi of 1min on/1 min off, 1 mi easy, 2 mi LT, 1 mi easy
T- 10 jog am, 3 jog pm
F- 12 easy
S- 5mi easy, 10x 1st min of each mile hard, 3 mi fast finish (6:30, 6:22, 6:18)
S- 3 jog
83 for the week. Starting this weekend I'm racing 4 of the next 6 ending with the Brooklyn Half. Two 5ks, a 10k and a half. Hopefully will make a run at all my PRs. Good luck to all you Boston folks on your last week of taper. Weather next Monday doesn't look great, but better than last year at least.
5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)
*downhill AF
Madison - Killer race!
Darkwave - I bummed we didn't have a chance to meet up. I still think you're in slightly better shape, but cannot argue with you that you executed well and left everything on the table. Regardless, this race had to have felt way better than your last. I still won't be surprised to see you crack 62 or get really close in the next 10 miler or later this year. Great race report. I agree with you that the race is incredible.
Mikkey - I still expect you to do great things in London, even on the lower mileage! Overall mileage is clearly the most important, but you also have years of mileage, plus you've had a lot of the longer runs. You've done those 53/week on much fewer days than you would normally expect. I think that counts for something.
And yeah, that was my first run in the 4%'s. I ended up getting my hands on them late Saturday afternoon. I slipped them on for a second that afternoon and they felt really funny. Darkwave had warned me that they felt silly at easy pace, so it didn't bother me too much. The shoes felt quite normal during the race. I have no doubts that they provided some benefit, I'm just not sure exactly how much.
Overall, I was really happy with my race (59:54). I still love running and racing, but was wondering how much I wanted to keep at it at a higher level (for me, that's over 50mi per week...so not nearly as crazy as some of you all!). This race has inspired me to keep at it. I still am unlikely to do a marathon this year, but will gear up big for Houston in January.
Here are some other tidbits from the race: I was singularly focused on trying to get under an hour ever since I had a poor showing in the Houston half in January. I ran a 1:23:13 on a really good weather day in Houston this year. That was my fourth year in a row running it, having run sub 1:20 twice and a 1:21:50 off of crappy training in crap weather. So the 1:23 was disappointing to say the least. A couple weeks after this race a friend of mine mentioned he had a bib for Cherry Blossom that he wasn't going to use and was happy to transfer it to me. The race was on my 40th birthday. I jumped on it. I set the goal at 1 hour, thinking that was roughly the equivalent of sub 1:20, and it was a cool number. It would be hard, but doable.
My training wasn't stellar, but it was very consistent. I got in 50-60 just about every week, with mild to moderate workouts, decent long runs and a weekly heavy weights session. At the end of it, I knew I was in significantly better shape than January, but not convinced I was in sub 1:20 shape (I've never raced a 10 miler, but I am relatively good at racing and knowing what kind of half shape I'm in). I had a couple of shorter races in there that didn't turn out how I wanted them to, but each one had issues that allowed me to discard them. I didn't dwell on those results.
In general, I guide my pace in a race by perceived effort, manual splits, and heart rate in that order. Since I hadn't really raced a 10 miler before, I just figured I'd run the first 4-6 miles like I would a half, then up it a bit at some point after that. I race most comfortably in a half when I go out hard to set the tone early, and hold on. I'm the opposite of Darkwave. If that's not the greatest strategy in a half, I figured it would be good for a 10 miler. An aggressive half pace should be close to 10 mile pace. At the same time, I totally had a singular focus of running this under an hour. Whether that pace was going to feel easy or brutal, I was going to stick as close as I could to 6 flat.
I was more or less happy with my first three splits. I thought I'd need to be at about 5:55 for the first mile at a comfortable effort to feel like I had a shot at under an hour. I clicked off a 5:59, but the start was quite congested (I thought it would be a faster field, but there was a good amount of slower runners that pushed up really far, even only starting 9s back). So I wasn't too worried about the 5:59. The second mile was 5:55. Perfect. Third mile was 6:04, which was a little concerning, so I touched the effort up just a bit. The fourth mile was then 5:32 which I knew was way off. Sure, I had bumped the effort up, but not that much. What I didn't know was whether the first miles were long or if the longer miles were to come. Either way, I was feeling good and knew that if I could keep more or less where I was, I could pick it up in the end if needed.
The great thing about 6 flat pace, and having clocks at each mile, you easily can do the math. At the fifth mile, I was well under 30min, so I kept the pace steady. I was reaaaallly wanting to not blowing up. I felt totally fine, but didn't want push too hard to all of a sudden slow. But each mile I kept gaining on the clock, which seemed a little odd. At mile 7, I had this nasty little stitch (I didn't really do the best nutrition this weekend, as we had a big birthday dinner Friday with plenty of drinks, so the stitch wasn't a great surprise). So I just kept telling myself to hold on, the stitch was easy to run through for less than 20 minutes. And then at the 8 mile marker, I saw I had lost almost all of my cushion. I picked it up slightly, but told myself to wait until the last mile to lay it all out there. Once I got to 9, I knew I had it. Or at least I was quite certain I did, and I did leaving almost everything I had left in that last mile.
Here are my splits with distance, time, GPS pace and HR for both this weekend, and the first 10 miles of my half in Houston (mile 10 in Houston was in to a strong headwind).
In a half, if I'm well trained, I know that I can sustain 176 in miles 2-8, then let it drift up from there. I never looked at my HR during yesterday's race. That probably was fine. Maybe I would have pushed a tad harder at some of those points, but who knows. And if that would have caused a blow up, I would have been pissed. Like I said, my singular focus was to get under an hour.
I also believe that I still had one more sub 20 5k in me, so I do think I managed to get myself back in to sub 1:20 half shape. I'm happy with that.
The other thing I notice from my splits is exactly how far off mile markers are in two large races. It's one thing for them to be off in small local races, but these are big time races. They should be right on. As GPS watches get better (both of these races had GPS readings super close to the legit distance), I probably need to just go with Auto Split, unless it's New York or Chicago.
Upcoming races: Boston
RIP Milkman
Andres - great report. I don't even bother with splits on my watch, I just keep the auto feature on and use the course clocks to do the math mentally. Allows my brain to stay active on something else, so I'll just remember the seconds I came through in the last split (e.g. if I came through mile 5 at 30:03, I'll just remember "03" and then use that to do the math at the next split). It can be really disconcerting when mile makers off though like you experienced.
You should definitely keep at it. You're making progress, and as long as that progress continues forward, there's no reason to give up. You've gone through a tough year, but now that they're back on track, it's time to keep chugging along.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Stotan Disciple
FinBad - Nice week you are the man to beat. Set a meeting place get on the bus together feed off each other and start out together see where you all fit in. I think you and JMac should team up weatherboy probably too. FL runners don't have great Bostons unless its hot. An exception was (2017) DZ (TX) started way back and had an amazing race but it was kinda warm in 2017.
JMAC - Taper sucks I wouldnt even second guess a bad workout or bad week in taper. I'd actually get excited when I have a crappy week I run well. I just hads the best week and died in a 5K. Your workout, that one day it does not trump your entire body of work this cycle. Hold your head up you're gonna have a great Boston.
Madison Just amazing. Looking at that course you're gonna have a fast Spring marathon if you decide to do a flat or downhill. You set the bar extremely high for everyone week and 2019 in general.
Mikkey - Nice job on your race i think you approached it smart. I was tempted to do an old school dump out and I thought you were going to do the same but as we get older we get wiser and we listen more to our body. Cant wait to see your results. Its a bout time you earned a Moose mug.
Darkwave - Congrats on Cherry Blossom. Since I see alot of similarities in the way you and I train you should look into CVT Critical Velocity Training. It's the only way I train. My GF is 41 she went from 1:25 to 1:19 doing CV 37:58 to 36:04. Now I coached her for 8 years she has always improved but only by little increments and she never liked CV training because she was a deadzoner on the side. Alie my autistic runner he went from 3:05 to 2:50. And my young Padawan is gonna go from 3:26 Boston to 2:55. but as Chris Puppione says they are many roads that leads to Sears. I like the easy fast scenic way.
CRITICAL VELOCITY: A PACE BETWEEN Chris Puppione
Thats the keys to the kingdom.
M_M_C
That article above is for you too, give me your best 10K and I will tell you your correct CV pace. Also Schwartz allows you a range and on day you are off don't beat yourself up Chris Puppione give 3 examples. What is important to note is that he says 89-91%. Is 89-91 5:24 - 5;40. Nope but I'm a lazy bastard so i do 5:40 on days I feel like shit and 5:24 when I'm high on life. I have figured out how to calculate it using McRun. If you have the app put in the pace in the calculator and you'll figure it out how to spot it. Dont feel the need to be a hero and hit paces every day thats why I do a high and high and low some days you're shitty (low). Anyway my CV interval is exactly 3:20 for 1K, 6:58 for 2K when I'm high. on Low days i drag ass 3:30/7:15-7:30 but the effect is all the same. I've found starting out a little slower gets the best effects then like schwartz I progressive load. So that as my athletes time improves I keep raising the bar every mesocycle. I make them stick to paces even if they see early improvement within a mesocycle. They have to wait until the next one to increase their pace.
JT - Nice week are you ready to rumble?? You're up next so we will all be watching you. dont feel pressured reread Mike Platt for some little self motivation \ pep talk and go get it done.
Andres - Great race,awesome race report, congratulations. Those vaporflys should be illegal.
Me I had a great week huge cut back maybe 40 miles total. I often leave my watch running as I drive home from the trail so i have no idea what my actual week was but I'd say about 40 miles. Had my heart set on breaking 16 in a local 5k and just didnt do it. Maybe it was that Starbucks bacon sandwich sitting in my gut. I just couldn't summon my legs to go. The guy who came fourth to me last week went by me at 1.3 miles and I couldn't even stay with him. Splits He ran 15:56 I faded badly to a 16:39. I'm definitely going out slow at BAA 5k. I'm pacing off the women in that race.
Thinking should be done first, before training begins.
I don't have that the McRun app. If I had to guess my 10k Id give myself 33:40-34:10 spiked up on a track with ideal conditions. I agree with the pace range philosophy completely, I generally do that. Starting slower usually seems to work for me as well. It isn't until the 3rd rep where I usually feel warmed up. I also agree with you on updating the pace every mesocycle, though sometimes it may be appropriate to change paces prior. My college coach would wait to move your workout paces up a while even if you popped off one race. The idea is that if you can PR running that slower pace in workouts you likely have more fitness to gain training at that pace so there's not point moving it just yet. I think my biggest downfall my senior year of college is me and my training partner got way too carried away and were forcing the fast end of the range or quicker every workout regardless of how we felt and the weather. Faster isn't always better
CRITICAL VELOCITY: A PACE BETWEEN Chris Puppione Thats the keys to the kingdom. M_M_C That article above is for you too, give me your best 10K and I will tell you your correct CV pace. Also Schwartz allows you a range and on day you are off don't beat yourself up Chris Puppione give 3 examples. What is important to note is that he says 89-91%. Is 89-91 5:24 - 5;40. Nope but I'm a lazy bastard so i do 5:40 on days I feel like shit and 5:24 when I'm high on life. I have figured out how to calculate it using McRun. If you have the app put in the pace in the calculator and you'll figure it out how to spot it. Dont feel the need to be a hero and hit paces every day thats why I do a high and high and low some days you're shitty (low). Anyway my CV interval is exactly 3:20 for 1K, 6:58 for 2K when I'm high. on Low days i drag ass 3:30/7:15-7:30 but the effect is all the same. I've found starting out a little slower gets the best effects then like schwartz I progressive load. So that as my athletes time improves I keep raising the bar every mesocycle. I make them stick to paces even if they see early improvement within a mesocycle. They have to wait until the next one to increase their pace.
3K: 8:29.12 (2017) 5K: 14:56.59 (2016) 8K: 25:27 (2016) 15K: 53:46 (2022) HM: 75:41 (2022) FM: 2:43:17 (2022)
Problem Child
My “long” run this Sunday felt like a real long run, where my legs were just out of gas only 8 miles in. Not exactly worried at this point given I always feel terrible during the tapers, but I haven’t felt this off in any of my marathons. Staying calm though, I assume it’ll work itself out over the next week.
How did the arm sleeve/gel carrying work out? Since I've never run with arm sleeves I might want to know this, or pass it along to a friend who uses similar sized nutrition packs.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Sounds like a perfectly executed race Andres. Interesting comparison to your HM as well.
As for Boston, forecast still has quite a bit of variability and timing issues, but it certainly looks chilly to perhaps downright cold if we get rain with a headwind looking more and more likely (magnitude is biggest issue). Running in packs is simply going to become a premium even it that means giving up a few seconds per mile. Last year some of those wind gusts were really painful, but personally I'd really like to avoid the hypothermia this time around! Will be grabbing my Nike rain jacket (which I didn't have last year) in my prep as well. Kind of agree with Nimmals about being from FL trying to run with the cold temps and hills in Boston. Thinking someone like Fin could really thrive in that kind of weather relative to the rest of us Either way going to be really hard to go after our A/B goals if this holds.
1mile: 4:46 (12/20) | 5K: 15:57 (3/21) | 10K: 33:40 (4/20) | 15K 51:43 (4/21) | HM: 1:15:03 (12/20) | FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)
I'm already prepping for the weather. I have a miserable time in cold/rain, especially with my hands. I just bought a pair of gloves recommend by Andrew Skurka for cold rain running as he seems to deal with the problems I do as well. Even if the forecast changes (let's hope!) these will be useful for me in the future. No glove combo has ever worked for me in the rain, although using surgical gloves in a test run did help a bit.
https://www.seamar.com/wps/myportal/c/products?itemNumber=ATS281-SZ
I'll also be bringing a rain jacket. The wind direction and level of rain plays such a huge role, but similar thing as my hands: I have never been on a rainy run and felt warm. At best, I feel not frozen. I can't ever see a situation where it is raining with wind and I have a jacket on going "I wish I wasn't wearing this thing." People tell me about overheating with gloves on during a run, I don't even know what that feels like.
The worst situation is if the forecast calls for rain at some point in the race, but not during all of it. Then you're just fucked. Can't wear a jacket the entire time because even someone like me would overheat with a jacket in the 40s, but then you're just setting yourself up to be frozen when the skies open up.
Brew - totally forgot to do my practice with the gels yesterday, I'm dumb. I'll try to remember for my easy run tomorrow.
Fin - Happy to do the 3x1 workout but I think you're in better shape than me so I don't want to be slowing you down. Might make sense for us to do an easy run together instead on Thursday (going to do 7, with 5 of those miles in the park).
Nimmals - thanks for that article. As a Daniels follower so far, I'm interested in learning about other methodologies as the one issue with his training is a lack of any real training in this sort of CV pace you're mentioning.
Which of the Nike rain jackets do you recommend?
Sounds like a perfectly executed race Andres. Interesting comparison to your HM as well. As for Boston, forecast still has quite a bit of variability and timing issues, but it certainly looks chilly to perhaps downright cold if we get rain with a headwind looking more and more likely (magnitude is biggest issue). Running in packs is simply going to become a premium even it that means giving up a few seconds per mile. Last year some of those wind gusts were really painful, but personally I'd really like to avoid the hypothermia this time around! Will be grabbing my Nike rain jacket (which I didn't have last year) in my prep as well. Kind of agree with Nimmals about being from FL trying to run with the cold temps and hills in Boston. Thinking someone like Fin could really thrive in that kind of weather relative to the rest of us Either way going to be really hard to go after our A/B goals if this holds.
Not sure I can recommend it since I have never worn it running yet, but I can look to see what it is when I get home from work I know It is pretty light and fairly tight to the body to avoid being blown around. I will only plan on wearing if it looks like a sufferfest (like last year). What I wore last year worked out okay (2-3 layers but not a jacket just long sleeves), but it was so weighed down by the end that I woudn't do it again
Andres/Darkwave - Congrats on Cherry Blossom yesterday! Bummer we couldn't meet up, but I'm sure you both were long gone by the time I finished.
Madison - Awesome race and really enjoyed the race report.
Weatherboy - Nice 2 mile tune up!
Mikkey - Very nice half leading up to London there
Had a solid first taper week (really just a regular down mileage week). Reduced volume by about 20%. Went hard on Wednesday over 10k net downhill similar to Boston's profile, then one final long run on Saturday with a few clicks at marathon effort that felt just a bit too tough. Had some easy and fun miles at Cherry Blossom yesterday. Even ran into DisplacedDingo at the end! My coach thinks I'm in 2:52 fitness, a bit faster than the 2:54 I was thinking. It all may be moot anyway with the weather, but in normal conditions I was planning to go out in 2:55 pace and work towards a solid negative split. We'll see though. Keep those Boston weather updates coming!
Weekly Summary Monday, Apr 01, 2019 thru Sunday, Apr 07, 2019
Thanks Nimmals, yes, I'm ready to roll. Feeling sluggish so basically normal for the last week of taper. Thanks for the article on CV pace; very useful. I really appreciate what you bring to this thread.
Andres: Great execution on your race! Looking at your HR data you judged the pacing just right.
Lela has gone AWOL like last year. Maybe she will return if Boston goes well...
2:52:16 (2018)
Funny story - I'm still here, just not keeping up with the thread.
Last three weeks of mileage: 37, 41.9, and 43.6 (with a 1:26:17 half marathon on Saturday).
Excited to see how everyone does at Boston! Mikkey, Madison, Andres, and DW - great racing!
Andres - Those vaporflys should be illegal.
Yup. I have to agree with that. My guess is that it will be the opposite though: that technology or similar will be standard in all high end race shoes. I waited for two plus years for them (as in the people that decide shoes are illegal) to say that they are illegal. I finally gave in.