2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 619 times)

    Lurk mode off....

     

    Just an FYI

     

    Boston Marathon 1000th Finisher Times (First corral cutoff) (Difference from 1st corral time)

    2019: 2:49:06 (2:44:38) (+4:28)
    2018: 2:54:42 (2:46:29)  (+8:13)
    2017: 2:56:08 (2:47:50) (+8:18)
    2016: 2:56:29 (2:46:36) (+9:53)
    2015: 2:50:35 (2:47:48) (+2:47)
    2014: 2:50:35 (2:45:37) (+4:58)
    2013: 2:52:20 (2:48:54) (+3:26)
    2012: 3:09:34 (2:49:32) (+20:02)
    2011: 2:55:41 (2:52:57) (+2:44)
    2010: 2:57:13 (2:54:37) (+2:36)
    2009: 2:57:24 (2:55:10) (+2:14)
    2008: 2:58:13 (2:55:20) (+2:53)

    So, basically it shows: 2012 was really bad, 2016 - 2018 were less bad. Then 2014 and 2019, next. Surprising run of "good" weather from 2008 through 2011. So ranking years of weather best to worst:
    1. 2009

    2. 2019

    3. 2011

    4. 2008

    5. 2013

    6. 2019

    7. 2014

    8. 2018

    9. 2017

    10. 2016

    11. 2012

     

    Yay, my last two Boston's were 9 and 10!

     

    Lurk mode on....

    darkwave


    Mother of Cats

      For those who ran Boston, how did your bib # compare to your finishing place?

       

      I was amazed that even though I only ran about 70 seconds quicker than my seed time, I finished 2346 overall despite being bib 5530. I'm sure it was similar for a lot of you.

       

      Good to beat your bib.  I do think it's worth noting that some with bibs higher than you may have DNSed or decided to drop back and run it for fun (or to pace another athlete) rather than race it.  OTOH, I'm fairly sure that of the 5539 or so ahead of you, less than 2200 DNSed or jogged it in.  So you definitely outran your seeding.

      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

       

      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

      slingrunner


        I ran 7 minutes slower than my seed time, and still beat my bib by about 2000 spots.  That's not entirely surprising.  There are always going to be people that blow up on course.  Also as a personal example, I qualified for Boston 2019 19 months ago.  A lot of people might have lost their fitness, not have trained as well, or might have used an easier course.

         

        I'm not sure what to make of the finishing data.  I mean obviously the conditions weren't better than in 2011, so there are other variables at play.  Meanwhile simple things like improvements in shoes and other racing gear and nutrition are obviously bumping up times.  Qualifying times keep improving.

         

        Just barely starting to feel normal again here.  Had I worn a fitbit yesterday, not sure I would have made it into triple digits with steps.  Really sunburned.

        5k- 18:55 (2018)    10K- 39:04 (2017)    Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)

        Nimmals


          Nimmals may have passed me... By any chance were you telling your athlete to run with her ass up one of the hills? Could have been anyone, but had a feeling it was you

           

          Hahaha that was not me I was pacing an Autistic runner. The other person you saw was Ron  with my athlete he was also wearing black and gold. yeah I designed both teams kits. The guy you saw is the guy in black behind us. for the marathon I paced this kid.

           

           

           

          Pacing Alie to sub 17 5k

           

           

           

          Team Alie

           

          You saw these two Thats the girl i coach she ran 2:56 a PR by 15 mins

           

          Meg & Ron

          Nimmals


             

            Good to beat your bib.  I do think it's worth noting that some with bibs higher than you may have DNSed or decided to drop back and run it for fun (or to pace another athlete) rather than race it.  OTOH, I'm fairly sure that of the 5539 or so ahead of you, less than 2200 DNSed or jogged it in.  So you definitely outran your seeding.

             

            Dark wave looks like you and I continued the similarities. Hahahaha we both won 3rd masters good for $84 after Mass state taxes in the  BAA 5K. I was huffing up Hereford, when i turn on Boylston just past the 2 mile marker the two BAA guys blew by me I was like  "There goes $300, no there goes $200. fugggghhhhhhh......."  I made a run with 400M to go but it was no use too far ahead. 16:03 net 16:05 gun time. Splits 5:02, 5:16, 5:13. Funny thing my watch said congrats you just ran a 15:39 5K.

             

            My day was hectic epic. so my Athlete had an accident I had to literally wash his shorts in the village.  Then his heel peeled offf. I heard him in the adjoining room every night kicking kicking for three days by the time he started he had a blister just waiting to happen. When they took off his shoe his whole heel came off in a thick piece of skin I almost cried. Can you imagine even continuing, so for him to finish with a PR and still hang on to 2:48 was amazing. He is much tougher than anyone I've ever known. The sad part is the pain is usually self inflicted.

             

            JMac Congrats on an awesome race.

             

            Finbad Sorry I didn't get to meet you.

             

            JTReeves So sorry about the marathon but not much can be done about the heat.

             

            Weatherboy did you capitalize in the humidty and heat It felt like Florida.

             

             

            As I was showering  rushing to do a 2:00 PM checkout I noticed I was sporting tan lines.

            So you slow cook in that heat. Lets not beat ourselves up.  Lets just do it again.

             

            Congrats to all who raced  this past weekend.

            Nimmals



              c) It is so very easy to leave your race out in your training.  I think there is a myth that one is supposed to be dragging during marathon training, struggling.  And that if you're not, then you're undertraining.    In actuality, I think very few people get marathon training correct; probably 9 out of 10 serious marathoners overtrain, with 7 or so of those able to dig themselves out during taper.  

               

              Nimmals - I know I congratulated you on Instagram, but congrats here as well on a great 5K on Saturday and a great service on Monday.  Not-so-random question, since I know you were third master as well.  Any idea how we get our $?  Do they mail it to us?  In every other race where I've won prize money, they've either given it to me right there, or had me fill out paperwork before mailing the check a month later.  I have no idea what's going on here.  I emailed the BAA asking if I needed to do anything, but no helpful response so far.

              DarkWave sorry just seeing this, as I was off and didn't see all post on my phone. So this lovely lady from the BAA will contact you. You will be emailed a form that you will have to fill out. Once submitted they will send a check to you less Mass state taxes. What you can do, Now you've placed in the prize money you can ask for comped entry to additional BAA events such as the 10K in June and the half marathon in October. I can send you the contact info for everyone in an Insta message.

               

              Congratulations on your placing. Additionally you will get a $50 Adidas gift card. and some kind of small trophy. I throw away trophies so I don't remember what it looks like.

               

               

              I agree with Darkwave on never over training.  Rule numero uno show up to races fresh and ready to serve notice. Some of you guys don't understand when "Cumulative Fatigue" ends.  Or  how important Lazy Becky Mode is. I told my Padawan. Lazy Beck 10 days out just limit the donuts and beer.

               

              JT- she killed it even in the heatt even passing  M_M_C in the hills using her   running  a 2:56:23 a 16 min PR can you imagine she ran 3:26 there last year.

               

              My Padawans don't play around 2:42 at CIM in December 2019.

               

              Mission Accomplished

              JMac11


              Benevolent Leader

                "Beating our bib" - I never complete this because it's a bit misleading: 32,500 bibs were issued but only 26,632 people finished. So you should beat your bib.

                 

                Nimmals - thanks for the photos, those are great. You're a great guy (honestly I find what you do to be very inspirational) to do what you do and I'm glad you found your way to these boards on RA after the move over. Please stick around, we have a lot to gain. Curious if you plan on running an all out marathon any time soon.

                 

                Weather - I want to focus on something Nimmals said. I honestly don't know that you were "overtrained" during the cycle, so I'm taking a contrarian position here compared to others. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think if you were, you would start to see your paces suffering as you get closer to taper time, which we didn't see. Also, let's be clear here: some of this may have been you had an off day and we're just trying to figure out what went wrong when it may have just not been your day, i.e. classic Confirmation Bias. However, if I had to actually pinpoint two things, I would say this:

                 

                - Boston course: I didn't appreciate before running it just how rolling it is. If you haven't practiced on hills all the time, I see why that course could eat you alive. It may be practically impossible for someone living in Florida to do well at Boston given you don't have rolling terrain to practice on like a lot of us do. Even going slowly on downhills takes practice such that you're not actively braking, which was something I was completely focused on the first few miles, i.e. keep it easy without actively slamming the breaks on. Even if you did your hill repeats on overpasses, you'll never get that practice of how to do that over a 20-22 mile long run

                 

                - Taper: this is one where I think you could have controlled it more and may have shot yourself in the foot. I thought this during it, but now looking back on the data, there were some workouts where you really ramped up the difficult in the taper.

                 

                3 weeks out: you completely switched the workout that's 2 weeks out from Boston to be 8E followed by 3x2T instead of doing the 8E afterwards. I know that might not seem like a lot, but there's a reason Daniels makes that switch compared to the rest of his program where he usually has long warmups because he specifically wants you to get the 3x2 and the mileage in, but not to make those 3x2 so difficult. By doing the 8E first, you made the workout much more difficult

                 

                2 weeks out: you reversed the T/M portions, once again making the workout more difficult than prescribed. Once again, the point of these workouts is to keep your legs moving, not to keep up the difficulty. Then, in your 13 miles the week out, you added 2 miles to the end of that at "faster than MP." There was no reason to do that.

                 

                1 week out: this looked more okay, but even the 3x1T you pushed the distance I think. I can't tell from your splits, but did you actually take the full 2 minute rest? I increased the rest to 2:20 on the theory that we want a 5:2 work/rest ratio for this particular workout. Once again, Daniels here is mimicking something similar to what you've done in the past, but easing it down. Also, I noticed you doing strides during these weeks. Maybe more minor, but I ramped down my strides considerably within 14 days. I completely stopped doing them within the last 4 days as I see no real benefit that close to a marathon.

                 

                This is all of course speculation, but if there's one thing maybe you should be taking out of this is that you can complete 2Q and be okay (I ran it almost to the tee in my 2:46 to NYC), but you have to stick to the considerable ramp down in difficulty in the taper. This is exactly what Nimmals was getting at with his Lazy Becky comment.

                 

                With that being said, I do think I'll stick with 2Q for CIM, but I'm completely aware of what the right taper is for me: I need more mileage than Daniels prescribes 3 weeks out, but I really go down in quality like he suggests. You have to remember that the hay is in the barn!

                 

                I hope that view is helpful and is more food for thought on what you can do rather than criticism of your approach. I was fully expecting to get back to my phone and see you had crushed this race given you have the most humidity acclimation compared to all of us, and I really want to see you succeed!

                5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                 

                Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

                weatherboy80


                  No worries JMac!  We are certainly not pro's and I hope to learn from others (and each race) so I appreciate you taking a bit of time to look through some things in my training block, especially the taper comments.  What you pointed out very well could have lead to a bit more fatigue in the legs going into race day.  Additionally, even though they were short events I also raced 2 pretty hard efforts in the last few weeks -- a 5K after a long warmup and then a steamy 2 miler with one week to go in addition to those workouts you mentioned.  The extra 2 miles at M pace with a week ago was probably just dumb.  I must admit I have a hard time staying on track when I don't do quality every so often that's where the extra bits of hard running came in the last few weeks.  I've done that in previous blocks as well.  Some of the other workout changes were due to meeting up with local friends for portions of our runs, but there should be no excuses when in taper Wink.

                   

                  I still think the bigger culprit for me could just be the Boston course itself, especially with all the rolling hills and downhills, isn't something I was totally prepared for and could not replicate on my LR's.   I also struggled a bit in 2017 relative to my incoming fitness level on this course.  Perhaps my form/technique just isn't that well matched for the miles of downhills at the moment.

                  5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

                    Race Report: Athens Ohio Marathon 2019

                     

                    Training cycle: Average weekly mileage for first 15 weeks: 64.7 mi. Final taper week: 19 mi. Highest week was 80.4. It took a while to get rolling this cycle as I was coming off of surgery for a double hernia last November, and then strained my calf a couple of times which resulted in several days off. I did one hard workout per week which consisted of threshold or faster running, but that seemed to be all I could take. The long runs were solid, with most being 20-22 milers. They were almost all at easy to honest pace (a bit faster than easy), with only 2 having any marathon pace miles in them. I stuck to my usual schedule of 6 days running per week, all singles, and Monday off.

                     

                    The race: I got into Athens the day before the race and the weather was beautiful, sunny and in the 70s. Overnight it started to rain, and did not let up until after the race was done. I got up at 5:00, ate my usual bagel with cream cheese and some water and Gatorade. Spent the next hour and a half going to the bathroom every 10 minutes and drove to the race at about 7:20. I parked near the finish, which was the Ohio University track. From there it was a 10 minute walk to the start. It was absolutely pouring, and my shoes and everything else was soaked by the time I reached the start. It was about 56 degrees and with the rain I was shivering. Given the rain, I wasn’t sure if I would still have a shot at my sub 2:50 goal. I decided to stick to my plan of running the first mile conservatively and then trying to ease into 6:25-6:30 pace. The first mile was a 6:40, right on target. By about 2 miles we were off the roads and on the bike trail where the majority of the course was run. It was a nice flat paved trail and fairly wide. The half marathon runners turned around at about 6.5 miles, and after that I was running by myself. There was a guy in sight about 200m ahead of me, and I eventually caught him right before the turnaround at ~13.2 mi. I hit the half at 1:25:00. I was feeling ok, but not great at that point. At the turnaround I could see I was in 8th place, but the next runners were far ahead of me. I did not even see anyone until about 19 miles. I caught one guy at around 21 miles, then another shortly after that. At about 23 miles I got even with another guy and passed him, more because he was slowing down than I was speeding up. The last miles were rough. I was so sick of splashing through puddles and clomping down in squishy waterlogged shoes. Once I got to the point where you leave the bike path and cut over to the track, I could not believe what we had to run through. It was like a mud pit from a cross-country race. It was a short stretch of grass (maybe 30 feet) which was like a swamp; thick mud and deep water. And you had to go through it. My shoes were already soaked but after going through that they were covered in mud. One guy told me after the race he lost both his shoes in that mess and had to finish without them, then go back and pull them out! Once out of that mess it was a nice 300 meters on the track to the finish. I saw I ran 2:53 low and was pretty happy with that given the conditions.

                     

                    Results: 2:53:10, 5th overall, 2nd in 40-44. First half 1:25:00, second half 1:28:10

                     

                    Summary of marathons

                    Year

                     

                     

                    Race

                     

                     

                    Time

                     

                     

                    Comments

                    2014

                     

                     

                    Hartford

                     

                     

                    3:16:14

                     

                     

                    First marathon and only negative split (1:39, 1:36). Constant rain.

                    2015

                     

                     

                    Hartford

                     

                     

                    3:06:08

                     

                     

                    Last 10k was a deathmarch.

                    2016

                     

                     

                    Hartford

                     

                     

                    2:57:35

                     

                     

                    First sub 3 and most well-paced of all my marathons (1:28, 1:29)

                    2017

                     

                     

                    Boston

                     

                     

                    3:13:05

                     

                     

                    First (and probably last) Boston. Way too hot.

                    2018

                     

                     

                    Martian

                     

                     

                    3:02:14

                     

                     

                    Flat course, pouring rain and strong winds 

                    2018

                     

                     

                    Hartford

                     

                     

                    2:52:16

                     

                     

                    Ideal temperature, light rain.

                    2019

                     

                     

                    Athens

                     

                     

                    2:53:10

                     

                     

                    Flat course, heavy rain.

                    5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

                    Up next: Athens OH Marathon (April 19)

                    darkwave


                    Mother of Cats

                      JTReeves - after reading all that, my first thought is that we really need to get you in a race with good weather.  Several of those races in your history had epic-ly awful weather.

                       

                      Re: the cutover from the bike path to the track - I had something similar in the 8K I did about a month ago, though my section wasn't quite as messy as yours.  I can't imagine having to run through that at the end of a marathon.

                       

                      I was ridiculously impressed by your performance, and even more so now that I've read the report.  That just sounds awful.

                      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                       

                      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                         

                        the Boston course itself, especially with all the rolling hills and downhills, isn't something I was totally prepared for and could not replicate on my LR's.   I also struggled a bit in 2017 relative to my incoming fitness level on this course.  Perhaps my form/technique just isn't that well matched for the miles of downhills at the moment.

                         

                        This really highlights something I try to emphasize to others.  People hear "rolling net downhill course" and think that the way to prepare is with hill repeats.  Hill repeats do all sorts of great things, but they don't address the twin challenges of a course like Boston or CIM - 1) having your quads prepped to handle all the downhill and 2) being able to hold a steady effort/rhythm on rolling hills.

                         

                        I'm lucky enough to live in an area where I can do both, with 1) long downhill runs of several miles at marathon effort and 2) marathon pace workouts on continuous rolling hills.  But it's a real challenge for those in other areas.  I guess you can duplicate both in part with treadmill running, but nothing comes close to training on similar terrain.

                        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                         

                        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                        darkwave


                        Mother of Cats

                           

                          Dark wave looks like you and I continued the similarities. Hahahaha we both won 3rd masters good for $84 after Mass state taxes in the  BAA 5K. I was huffing up Hereford, when i turn on Boylston just past the 2 mile marker the two BAA guys blew by me I was like  "There goes $300, no there goes $200. fugggghhhhhhh......."  I made a run with 400M to go but it was no use too far ahead. 16:03 net 16:05 gun time. Splits 5:02, 5:16, 5:13. Funny thing my watch said congrats you just ran a 15:39 5K.

                           

                          So….not so similar....at no point was I battling with Jen Rhines for the masters win Smile

                           

                          Thanks very much for the info, I really appreciate it.  I'm hoping the masters placement also means I can skip the self-seeded corrals next time.  I literally stood for 25 minutes in the corral before the 5K started, which was far from ideal - I'd love to avoid that situation next go around.

                           

                          And....massive congrats to your Padawan on a truly impressive performance.

                          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                           

                          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                          weatherboy80


                            Thanks Darkwave as you might be on to something.  Maybe it was just a combination of things with me (as JMac rightly pointed out).

                             

                            Nimmals:  well done and what you are doing for others is simply amazing and more so than X time in a race!  You have some extremely talented athletes that you are coaching.  As for the heat I did not capatlize like I thought I would have and it did feel a bit like some of my early AM runs down here in Florida.  I just think the rolling hills and downhills took a bit of a toll on my legs or as others have pointed out I didn't quite get my taper right going in.

                             

                            JT: What an awesome race effort and certainly those conditions sound less than ideal (for sure)!  I think you probably ran a PR effort this weekend.

                            5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

                            jayluf


                              Think there’s something to be salvaged with my current fitness, so i’m going to run the Bayshore marathon in Traverse City, Michigan on May 25th.

                               

                              I’m still baffled about Monday, but I’ve moved on and am excited to get back out there this weekend. My resolve to come back next year couldn’t be stronger. Serious kudos to all you who crushed it. You all are fucking awesome!

                              Nimmals


                                Darkwave  - Yes it helps as you get to use the Elite Corral. I  had to push my way through by virtue of not reading the pickup instructions. I got online 5 minutes before the start then made my way to the front I dragged GabbyTri with me.

                                 

                                JMAC - Your analysis is spot on and more eloquent than I ever could have said it. Florida running is at a distinct disadvantage with the rolling terrain plus Weather didn't employ a pull switch to get into "Lazy Becky mode". He appears to have tapered poorly after all that amazing training. The only thing I would change is making easy runs easier by dialing back paces after specificity is over. All those last minute workouts are useless two weeks out. Whats important is to start to eat better, sleep right and keep most efforts easy, any hard efforts very, very short.

                                 

                                JMac I plan to see if i can get into Grandmas and try to run a PR there to qualify for London 2020.