2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 614 times)

Andres1045


    JT - Both that race, and your marathon history is nuts! I'm impressed at how well you train and keep at it, having had to deal with all of that crap in actual marathons. Amazing stuff.

     

    Jayluf - I've had a couple of really bad efforts at Boston, and have walked away somewhat baffled too (much less so than when I did NY last year KNOWING I was in nothing close to marathon shape). I wouldn't worry too much about it. But your mileage does seem rather low for your lofty goals. Quite a bit of up and down. Am I misreading your Strava?

     

    Slammin - Great stuff out there!

    Upcoming races: Jean Bouin 10k Nov 24 - Barcelona

                                Houston Full January 2020

    steve_


    powered by plants

      JT- remind me never to register for your goal race.  Thanks

       

      Regarding hilly courses, you're either a good hill runner, or you aren't.  This is something you can only slightly improve through training.  Like weather, I live and train almost exclusively on pancake flat terrain and yet I'm an above average hill runner compared to those of similar overall ability.  I really don't think running long runs on a rolling terrain like Central Park prepares you that much more for a course like Boston than doing them on flats.  That said, I still think hills and especially hill sprints have a place in any training plan, but just don't expect them to make you THAT much more prepared for a hilly race.  I think it's much wiser to simply find a course that suits your strengths and target that.

      5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

      *downhill AF

      Nimmals


        JT - Great race report. I mean that wasn't that bad a fall off/fade, all things considered. Get a goal race like CIM where you have many likewise competition. It seems like you spent too much time in no man's land and became bored hence the slow cumulative fade. You need a more crowded experience where you can fight or chase everyone you see.

        Swim5599


          DarkWave sorry just seeing this, as I was off and didn't see all post on my phone. So this lovely lady from the BAA will contact you. You will be emailed a form that you will have to fill out. Once submitted they will send a check to you less Mass state taxes. What you can do, Now you've placed in the prize money you can ask for comped entry to additional BAA events such as the 10K in June and the half marathon in October. I can send you the contact info for everyone in an Insta message.

           

          Congratulations on your placing. Additionally you will get a $50 Adidas gift card. and some kind of small trophy. I throw away trophies so I don't remember what it looks like.

           

           

          I agree with Darkwave on never over training.  Rule numero uno show up to races fresh and ready to serve notice. Some of you guys don't understand when "Cumulative Fatigue" ends.  Or  how important Lazy Becky Mode is. I told my Padawan. Lazy Beck 10 days out just limit the donuts and beer.

           

          JT- she killed it even in the heatt even passing  M_M_C in the hills using her   running  a 2:56:23 a 16 min PR can you imagine she ran 3:26 there last year.

           

          My Padawans don't play around 2:42 at CIM in December 2019.

           

          Mission Accomplished

           

          That’s a ton of improvement.  Super impressive.  2:43 s about what I think I can run at CIM next year.  Would be nice to see you out there Boyd

          HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

          weatherboy80


            Steve: interesting take on things.  For whatever reason (slight physical/mental fatigue or the terrain itself) I never felt like I could hit the marathon pace I trained for all cycle.  I felt like the effort level, even after the conservative 5K start, was about 15-20 seconds slower than my biggest workouts in Florida on the flat.  Maybe there is something to be said about my downhill running technique that isn't as well suited for that course --perhaps by trying to take it easy I braked a bit too much which killed legs later on.

            5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

            JMac11


            Benevolent Leader

              I don't know if I agree with the idea that you're either good at hill running or you're not and training on similar terrain wouldn't help. That would be like telling a fast twitch runner that you aren't good at running long slow distance, so long runs won't help you. Of course they'll help. ETA: I think this is especially true the longer the distance gets. I don't know that running hilly long runs would help you for a hilly 10K. This is where Steve's comparative advantage is probably more true.

               

              Some people may have a comparative advantage in hill running and therefore those that are weak would do better on flat courses (same as fast twitch do better in shorter races), but it doesn't mean you can't train it. I found the first 4 miles of Boston to be super tricky and can see how if you never run hills, you may feel a bit off.

               

              JT - I agree with Nimmals: come run CIM with me . I will say that during the last 6 miles of Boston, I didn't think the crowd was really pushing me, but then I thought "what if it was dead quiet and nobody was around?" If that was the case, there's a good chance I would have just walked for a little bit with how bad the pain was. I think you need to run a good weather marathon with good runners around you. Make the trip! No cross country components to CIM.

              5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

               

              Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

              Andres1045


                Steve: interesting take on things.  For whatever reason (slight physical/mental fatigue or the terrain itself) I never felt like I could hit the marathon pace I trained for all cycle.  I felt like the effort level, even after the conservative 5K start, was about 15-20 seconds slower than my biggest workouts in Florida on the flat.  Maybe there is something to be said about my downhill running technique that isn't as well suited for that course --perhaps by trying to take it easy I braked a bit too much which killed legs later on.

                 

                I'm not buying what Steve is trying to sell--the idea that you're either born a good hill runner or not, and practice helps only minimally.

                 

                But generally, what you're saying isn't the way Boston usually works.  Usually the effort is super easy even when you're a bad hill runner running faster than your MP, and you don't realize the damage you've done until you get to or past Newton.  That didn't happen to you. You ran a rather consistent race and held it together well in the last 5. I just think you had an off day. I also know that you sometimes run in the mid-morning, but you're like me that a vast majority of your running happens before the sun comes up. Having to wait 5 hours before you start to run for Boston can really through that normal schedule off.

                Upcoming races: Jean Bouin 10k Nov 24 - Barcelona

                                            Houston Full January 2020

                Andres1045


                  Looks like JMac and I were talking over each other...

                  Upcoming races: Jean Bouin 10k Nov 24 - Barcelona

                                              Houston Full January 2020

                  JMac11


                  Benevolent Leader

                    Andres - I do agree, it's also probably a combination of many factors that lead to someone under-performing.

                     

                    Weather - you're getting a full diagnostic on your race. This is why these forums are great.

                    5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                     

                    Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

                    weatherboy80


                      Thanks - this is where something like this forum shines as we can learn a bunch from each other!

                      5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                        I don't know if I agree with the idea that you're either good at hill running or you're not and training on similar terrain wouldn't help. That would be like telling a fast twitch runner that you aren't good at running long slow distance, so long runs won't help you. Of course they'll help. ETA: I think this is especially true the longer the distance gets. I don't know that running hilly long runs would help you for a hilly 10K. This is where Steve's comparative advantage is probably more true.

                         

                        Some people may have a comparative advantage in hill running and therefore those that are weak would do better on flat courses (same as fast twitch do better in shorter races), but it doesn't mean you can't train it. I found the first 4 miles of Boston to be super tricky and can see how if you never run hills, you may feel a bit off.

                         

                         

                        A lot of this harks back to the question - do you train your strengths or your weaknesses? (the answer is: both.)

                         

                        I think that there is both a physiological component and a skill component to running and racing well on hilly courses.    Some people may just be naturally suited to those courses, and will shine, while others find them challenging.  But I do think that one can improve one's ability to run well on hilly courses by training on rolling hills to develop an intuitive sense of how to expend one's effort best over that type of course.  And...the ability to physically handle the stresses of downhill running can also be developed via training.

                        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                         

                        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                           

                          JT - I agree with Nimmals: come run CIM with me . I will say that during the last 6 miles of Boston, I didn't think the crowd was really pushing me, but then I thought "what if it was dead quiet and nobody was around?" If that was the case, there's a good chance I would have just walked for a little bit with how bad the pain was. I think you need to run a good weather marathon with good runners around you. Make the trip! No cross country components to CIM.

                           

                          JMac and Nimmals: It was definitely a lonely race from 6.5 miles to about 20. I'm not sure that had as much of an effect as being bombarded with rain. But I agree, with more runners around you it gives something to focus on and to keep up the pace.

                           

                          As far as the weather for my races, I don't think all the rainy ones were bad, just Athens and Martian where the rain was really heavy. I would take light rain and its cooling effect over warm, dry conditions (like Boston 2017).

                           

                          One trend for me is that all the spring marathons I've done have had lousy weather. Maybe I should just stick to fall races...

                          5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

                          Up next: Athens OH Marathon (April 19)

                          steve_


                          powered by plants

                            I don't know if I agree with the idea that you're either good at hill running or you're not and training on similar terrain wouldn't help. That would be like telling a fast twitch runner that you aren't good at running long slow distance, so long runs won't help you. Of course they'll help. ETA: I think this is especially true the longer the distance gets. I don't know that running hilly long runs would help you for a hilly 10K. This is where Steve's comparative advantage is probably more true.

                             

                            Some people may have a comparative advantage in hill running and therefore those that are weak would do better on flat courses (same as fast twitch do better in shorter races), but it doesn't mean you can't train it. I found the first 4 miles of Boston to be super tricky and can see how if you never run hills, you may feel a bit off.

                             

                            converting/recruiting muscle fibers to make you a better distance runner is an entirely different situation than trying to become a better hill runner.  I think being a good hill runner has much more to do with biomechanics and stride.  Things that are much harder to change.

                             

                            I'm not saying you shouldn't train on hills, but to say that weather had a tough time on the Boston course because he trains on a pancake-flat terrain (or that he had an off day) and ignoring the fact that he most likely left his best efforts out on the training roads is a minor oversight, to say the least.

                            5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                            *downhill AF

                            JMac11


                            Benevolent Leader

                              Nimmals - I was trying to plan out some fall tune up races and the Suffolk County half came up (I'm kind of crazy with thinking that far in advance but I'm a planner). I saw you won the full, so I figured you're a good person to ask! Is it a well run race? I'm planning on running the half as a good tune up before CIM. My only concern with it was they plan on adding a 10K and I wasn't sure if you found that the slower runners in the shorter races clogged up the final miles.

                              5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                               

                              Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

                              finbad


                                Jayluf - I get the motivation for the redemption race, I was looking at marathon entries on tuesday morning. My only word of caution would be to make sure you learn something from your Boston experience, would suck to get a second 'bad day'. I've got no special insight and my Boston didn't exactly pan out as planned, hence the 11 minute positive split. I had a quick look at the Bayshore marathon and it looks like you're at least going to get a change up on profile (hope for better weather too). Good luck.

                                 

                                Just had a look at the Boston official photos and judging by the fact that I suddenly look very pink after about 10 miles I guess I was overheating a bit more than I'd thought.

                                 

                                Think I'm going to take a couple of weeks totally off to get the snip then come back to some 5k training. I'll still lurk around here but may start posting my weekly in the half thread as I have a couple of halfs coming down the pike.

                                Upcoming; 14th Sep Scottish veterans XC trials, 289th Sep Great Scottish Run 1/2, 12th October TAMA half marathon, 27th October Leeds Abbey dash 10k