Forums >Racing>Sub 1:30 Half Marathon in 2018
RIP Milkman
So which 2Q program did you follow last year? 40-55 or 55-70 mpw? Since I plan to max out at 50 I'm sticking with the 40-55 program this time around.
I will tell you now, the 40-55 plan is brutal. I tried part of that for my first marathon and just completely abandoned it because the Q days are just too much in terms of your total mileage. For example, the first week of the 40-55 plan is 29 miles of Q work. If you do 29 miles of Q work, what in the world are you doing the rest of the week? 3 days of 4-5 miles each? If you take a look at the 56-70, it makes a lot more sense. Week 1 is only 31 miles, so you can do 25 miles or so of easy running the rest of the days. That worked well for my last marathon where I was doing 2Q days and then anywhere from 8-10 miles of easy running on other days.
Honestly, I think JD built the 2Q more for people running in the 80-100 range, and then tried to scale it down for lower mileage, but it breaks at the 41-55 range. If you're going to try it, I would recommend scaling down the workouts a bit, or upping your mileage.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Intl. correspondent
Mark - heh our army is okay, strong enough the crazy loco in Caracas does not get ideas, but not strong enough to oppose any of the big guns.
Luckily, unlike the US & A, we decide all our matters of sovereignty in the soccer pitch.
It’s a pity Germany didn’t take over after 7x1 however haha. I’d love if we became a province of Germany, but I don’t think they’d like that.
MJ - there’s a joke somewhere in there about viagra, de wallen and expensive love life
We talked about this mental edge the other day, I think we can access it at any level, but not so often.
Piwi - get better, throw those greens out!
Marco - Keep the conservative approach and you should be good. Intervals are fun!
Jmac - central park is hilly just fine.
Keen - go run!
me - It seems if I eat something with garlic or spicy food I get reflux and sore throat, then a cold.
In that order.
Likewise if I talk too much.
I should go to a doctor but I'm lazy. Maybe after vacation.
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
Tool to generate Strava weekly
I will tell you now, the 40-55 plan is brutal. I tried part of that for my first marathon and just completely abandoned it because the Q days are just too much in terms of your total mileage. For example, the first week of the 40-55 plan is 29 miles of Q work. If you do 29 miles of Q work, what in the world are you doing the rest of the week? 3 days of 4-5 miles each? If you take a look at the 56-70, it makes a lot more sense. Week 1 is only 31 miles, so you can do 25 miles or so of easy running the rest of the days. That worked well for my last marathon where I was doing 2Q days and then anywhere from 8-10 miles of easy running on other days. Honestly, I think JD built the 2Q more for people running in the 80-100 range, and then tried to scale it down for lower mileage, but it breaks at the 41-55 range. If you're going to try it, I would recommend scaling down the workouts a bit, or upping your mileage.
That's a good point, and I think I've noticed this before but haven't really reflected on it. I guess you could adjust this with shortening the E miles on the Q2 days as almost every workout starts with 5-6 miles or more of E-pace before any of the other work starts. Or do you lose too much of the effect of doing workouts on slightly tired legs by doing this?
Flavio - Haven't there been wars started or settled because of soccer matches in South America? I seem to have some memories of this....
I'm so incredibly tired today it's hard to keep my eyes open at work. At the time it felt nice to do a morning run today abut I don't think my body is used to this.
5k: 20:32 (1/17) | HM: 1:34:37 (2/18) | FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)
Getting back into it
That's a good point, and I think I've noticed this before but haven't really reflected on it. I guess you could adjust this with shortening the E miles on the Q2 days as almost every workout starts with 5-6 miles or more of E-pace before any of the other work starts. Or do you lose too much of the effect of doing workouts on slightly tired legs by doing this? Flavio - Haven't there been wars started or settled because of soccer matches in South America? I seem to have some memories of this.... I'm so incredibly tired today it's hard to keep my eyes open at work. At the time it felt nice to do a morning run today abut I don't think my body is used to this.
I think the best approach is to follow what his book actually talks about in maximums, with a tiny bit of flexibility. Your max in any workout should be:
10% T
20% M
So if you're running 50 miles per week, you shouldn't go above 5 miles at threshold pace. Now sometimes you want to do a 3x2 mile workout, which isn't going to kill you, but you shouldn't be doing anything crazy like 4x2.
I looked a bit through the 41-55 plan and he does a decent job at keeping to his maximums, except for a few workouts like week 9 where has 5E + 3x2T + 1T + 2E. In those, you should definitely cut something out. Otherwise, I think reducing the "warmup" is a good approach while also being aware if the workout is going to kill you.
I would say though that if you're going to do this, 50 mpw shouldn't be your max. Shoot for 55-60 and try to start the program at around 45 mpw. It'll make your life a lot better and less injury prone.
Marco it seems you have recovered from that marathon quickly. Just keep an eye on how you feel if you start doing fast stuff incase more easy mileage is needed first.
JMAC you probably have some DOMS from steeper than usual hills which recruit different muscles to rolling hills with less incline. That hill run i do once per week is really steep the first mile which i run at 12 min/mile pace if Im pushing quite hard !
Mark may not put up his strava due to his fast average pace getting commented on
Rune good job getting in what you can. You probably are not fully recovered from the cold and travelling and hence the fatigue.
Keen there is a TV ad here at the moment for the crappiest looking treadmill. The base looks like its only less than a metre long. A running stride would leave you missing the back of it.
Watson solid week and good call on the missed long run. I used to hit 60 mpw in 2013 and 2014 during marathon training and that was definitely when I was at my fastest. I will try to get back up there.
We moved to NZ in 1975 and I loved sport so followed the Olympics etc. about when Walker, Quax, and Dixon were big.
Ran an easy 10kms this morning. Was ok but still feeling a bit crappy. Going for my 50 year old blood test tomorrow. Bummer i really wanted the finger test
55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT
" If you don't use it you lose it, but if you use it, it wears out.
Somewhere in between is about right "
Piwi - I think I just didn’t realize how slowly you have to run up those hills. I felt like I was basically shuffling, but it got me so winded that I couldn’t finish without walking. But I realized that by walking up those hills, I caught my breath back. So clearly there is a pace between walking (20 minute per mile) and shuffling (9 minute per mile) that worked. I guess 12 minutes is the right number! Just hard to do that without experience of what you should be feeling. Also, how do you handle the downhills? Do you actively try to slow yourself down, or do you just let your legs take you? I felt like when I let my legs take me, it was too fast and I was out of control and probably would have fallen if I kept accelerating, so I was actively hitting the brakes, which may have added to hip fatigue I’m feeling since Saturday.
Jmac going up I always try to maintain a jog no matter how steep but in reality a fast walk will just about keep up.
Downhill I prefer to let myself go if its crazy steep rather than braking but it can get out of control. It does get easier as you learn to sprint in a controlled way. Ive got one downhill 420m segment which I did in 65 secs at apparently 2.32/km...that was one all out downhill sprint
https://www.strava.com/segments/11272446?filter=overall
jmac - never run in a uncontrolled way. going downhill you will make sure it's a controlled descent, watch your step, change your arm swing so your hands end up lower than usual (conversely the hands go upper when going uphill).
Downhill will hit different muscles, there's a nice exercise I just learned that can help with that.
I actually do with a single leg at a time. I also only do the portion from bridge all the way down ("the out"), then simply "walk" back up to bridge position.
I reckon the return should be the hardest part that's why I'm not yet doing it.
I use one of these gliding discs but you can use anything that will glide, even a piece of cloth against a wooden floor.
Thanks for the insight JMac! I will take a close look at the workouts to see if I want to scale any of them down or move some easy miles around. Regarding mileage I will see what I can do, but remember I maxed out my weekly mileage at 50 this spring (and that was only for a week) and my average for the Oakland marathon was 33. And congrats on the 5k PR!
Flavio - Sub 40 10k is a great race! And I somehow find it pretty cool when people in a country have enough passion about something to go out in a large strike to show their displeasure. I think the French truck drivers are pretty good at that as well.
Piwi - Thanks. Hoping that's all it is. Let's see how the next couple of weeks unfold. You're working on some nice consistency here over the last few weeks. Hope you chase that cold soon.
Corey - Welcome!
Keen - I have a couple of different belts similar to the SPI belt Mark has, and I think they're great. There is no problem packing a bunch of gels in there, I don't notice them when I'm running, and lately I've used it to bring my phone on my runs for the daily running pictures . The phone will bounce a bit when I get to R-pace but otherwise I hardly notice it.
Mick - Hope you recover soon!
Mark - Nice consistency!
Today I have another leg strength/running economy workout on the program. 4x400 and 8x200 reps with plenty of recovery. I'm following Jack Daniels' suggested progression on these but I might swap out a couple of the 200s for a 400 to be ready for 8x400 next week as last week's workout also had 4x400 included.
Flavio wow you look amazing in those photos above
Yeah, he must work out!
(to quote Dumb and Dumber)
JMac - to be honest I am just enjoying the training at the moment. With still ~2 months until Taupo, it feels like I've got a nice dedicated training window. I really enjoyed that half marathon series but between that and the marathon it was basically a race a month for like 8 months, so sometimes I felt like the training around that was a little inconsistent.
Piwi - yeah that and the fact that I have to add my weights sessions in manually anyway.
Rune - hope you're over that cold now
Watson - very wise to cut the week short a bit if you're not feeling 100%.
Re hills (JMac/Piwi/Flavio)- the two rules I live by are:
1. On the uphill, shorten your stride and use your arms (like Flavio says)
2. On the downhill, don't fight it and try not to lean back too far.
I used to be crap going downhill and people would fly past me in races, then I discovered that I was leaning too far back and basically just wasting a lot of energy braking. Some hills are so steep that you need to lean back to brake a bit, but if it's not that steep, try to maintain a natural posture, don't break at the waist (it'll feel like you're leaning forward a bit), and just let the hill carry you down.
Me - May ended up being my second biggest month of all time @362km (last July was 400km). Didn't go out intending for that to be the case but that's just how it ended up with some good long runs in there and consistency across weeks.
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48
Up next: Runway5, 4 May
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
Cobra Commander Keen
Sorry for the quick drive-by. I'll catch up more tomorrow as time allows.
First run since Friday today. It felt really good, and I'm pretty sure the same temperature felt worse last week, so that's a positive. Didn't do anything "fun" like I thought I would, but there's always tomorrow.
Pulling the trigger on race registration, etc. for a fall marathon today. Now all that remains is to get fast before the big day arrives. No biggie, right?
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Keen nice what marathon you aiming for ? You have a nice base so a good time to start a 16 week program.
Mark good stuff on averaging over 80kms per week for the month. Its a good number for you with your quality too. I like your training paces as they differ from the norm and it shows the variety of methods for improvement.
Good advice on hill running.
I managed 12kms after my health check/blood test. I weighed in at 69kgs 152 lbs and blood pressure normal
Run was good legs had lots of energy but lungs are still a bit sick.
That treadmill advertised in NZ is ridiculous.
Re hills - I am slow up hill. Will often be 11 minutes per mile. Although downhill I am quite quick. On the three halfs I have ran on rolling hills I had sections up hill getting overtaken. And then on the downhill I would catch and overtake. And the next rolling hills, rinse and repeat.
PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)
40+ PRs: 5km 19:31 (Oct 2020), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018), full 3:13:55 (Sep 2022)
2023 PRs (hope to beat in 2024): 5km 20:34, 10km 41:37, half 1:32:32, full 3:21:05
2024 PRs: 5km 20:25