Forums >Racing>Sub 1:30 Half Marathon in 2018
http://www.electricblues.com/archive/DanielsTables3-00-00.xls
This one. I have my own that I can share - it has some of the screenshots of the book.
Garmin connect sounds great. I have a Suunto and don't think I can upload anything there! Bummer.
HM: 1:47 (9/20) I FM: 3:53:11 (9/23)
2024 Goals: run a FM & HM + stay healthy!
RIP Milkman
Ah yes, that's the one! I have it downloaded too but had no idea where I got it from so couldn't help. Nice find MJ. That spreadsheet is invaluable.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
JMac one question though, as I have been thinking about this myself: How do you determine your reference time vs your PR time without overdoing it / being too aggressive?
This is JD's shortcoming I think. It asks for your PR time but that results in your goal pace. You would never really get better than the PR.
Mick, I think the spreadsheet (and all pace calculators) are meant to use your last race as a starting point. If it was a PR, then your PR is the starting point for your next training cycle.
I made a last minute decision to change my training run yesterday from the planned 12.5 miles at m-pace to Jack Daniels' EMTME workout, with 2 miles easy, 6 miles m-pace, 2k threshold pace, 3 miles m-pace, and 2 miles cooldown at the end. I would run the 2 mile easy/warmup regardless and it felt a bit daunting to run 14.5 or 15 miles on a Wednesday evening, so I decided to trade some distance for a little bit of intensity. I also missed this workout a few weeks ago and figured it would fit in well yesterday.
Apart from the fact that an intense urge to go to the bathroom made me cut the last m-pace segment to 1 mile instead of 3 the workout went really well. I started by thinking I would run my m-pace at about 7:25 but somehow fell into a faster pace that felt comfortable. Based on my HR the average pace for the first 6 miles m-pace (7:14) is in no way sustainable for a marathon right now, but is definitely good for a half. The end also proved what a good workout this is to simulate fatigue towards the end of a race as it was pretty hard to keep my pace up for the last mile. Either way this workout was a good confidence builder for me.
5k: 20:32 (1/17) | HM: 1:34:37 (2/18) | FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)
Getting back into it
Cobra Commander Keen
JMac one question though, as I have been thinking about this myself: How do you determine your reference time vs your PR time without overdoing it / being too aggressive? This is JD's shortcoming I think. It asks for your PR time but that results in your goal pace. You would never really get better than the PR.
Thanks for the link!!If you don't have a recent PR, or otherwise aren't in that kind of shape they go off of a "I think I can run XX:XX". They basically want to start you off at whatever your current fitness is, then allow for modifying things faster or slower if the workouts are too hard or too easy. My plan assumes increasing fitness as the plan goes on, and ends up with (slightly) faster paces at the end of the plan than at the beginning.
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Mick, almost all of the training plans use the last race as starting point... This approach is far better than a random willful goal. And that's regardless of it being a PR or not... You can omit/adjust its value if you got a lower performance due to sickness/preparation or race conditions (weather, elevation, congestion), but you need something that reflects your actual fitness.
Your paces will work well for your current shape and will help you prepare for the next level. You can speed up the last speed intervals or tempo miles if you feel it's too easy.
Now, most of the coaches suggest a periodic validation of the pace, usually in the form of a tuneup race. For a half, you can run a 5K or 10K in the middle of the training and then you can methodically adjust the paces.
For my last marathon I did HM time trials at a MP, every 4 weeks, and that gave reassurance of what I was able to do (1h41, 1h38, 1h36). This time I'm actually racing one HM 6 weeks before the marathon.
Thanks for the spreadsheet, I knew the website but several links are already dead.
Ok thanks that's helpful. I have a PR and its a recent one. It was my first race and I know I could have run faster. But the JD spreadsheet has a circular reference, particularly when you are just starting to run, like me. So if I were to train at those intensities, I would be in shape to repeat the PR. So at which point do I push harder without having to sign up for a shorter distance race that I dont want to run? I guess I will have to do so gradually during JDs Phase II.
Mick, you will still get better, even without upping the intensities, especially if you are relatively new to running. Jack Daniels even preaches not upping the intensity gradually but to rather take pleasure in the fact that your workouts are getting easier. If you don't want to race you can always do a shorter time trial to see where you're at to see how to up the intensity. FYI, in my 15 week training program the intensity is upped a bit in week 7, and then again in week 13.
The only time I actually use my most recent race is if it's that: recent. I think I'm in a situation that makes it more difficult, where I effectively haven't run for 3 months at this point and am trying to build up.
For me, the best way to judge what time I should be running is by going out for either a 20 minute tempo run, or completing a 2x2 mile cruise interval session. After years of running tempo pace, I know what that feels like. I don't exactly know what 5K pace feels like, and I only know marathon pace after doing it for marathon training. But tempo pace my body knows.
I would NEVER put in my goal pace though in the calculators. Goals are exactly that: a goal. They do not reflect your current fitness. For my most recent 1:20:39 half, I trained almost the entire period using a 1:22:00 as my estimated pace until the last few weeks, when I truly felt like I was in sub 1:21 shape even though I set sub 1:21 as my goal 6 months in advance.
Since you have a recent PR, that's exactly what you should use. It's MUCH better to run your tempo and interval paces too slowly than too quickly. The only time I will bump up my tempo paces is if I complete at least 3 workouts in a row where I was constantly having to slow down because current pace felt too easy (which is why I moved my pace up in my previous race). At that point, I'll bump up my VDOT by 1.
Hopefully that was helpful.
Thank you Rune & JMac!
I just put together an extended 18 weeks JD hm plan with some shorter races in between that I don't specifically prepare for (12k & 17k) but just plan to run as the long/quality run. The 12k is 7 weeks out and will give me a good idea as to where I stand. I will stick to the last PR and adjust if I see that this particular race goes better than anticipated or if the JD workouts start to feel too easy.
The problem I see with the JD plan is that it might be very accurate when you are near your maximum, but doesn't exploit your full potential when you are just beginning or coming off a break. This being said: playing it safe avoids injuries and keeps you in the game... I know this all too well and need to be more disciplined in holding back.
Thanks again. If it goes wrong I have you two to blame
On a different note: today I took a video of my gait in slow motion with my mobile. It's about 350MB (if anyone knows how I can share this here on RA, I would be more than happy to get some feedback). Anyways, I overpronate particularly on my weaker right leg and this became pretty obvious, much to my surprise. I am currently running in neutral shoes (Asics Nimbus, Hoka Clifton4, On Cloud) because the sales person at the running shop did a stance analysis and determined that my right leg should correct over time and that the muscles were strong enough to counter the impact. I am still battling with patella tendonosis on my right leg from overtraining back in October. This is however getting slowly better, as I am only gradually increasing mileage and only run at easy pace for now. I wonder however if I am not running in the wrong shoes. I used to run in the Kayano's until the sales person convinced me to switch back to neutrals. Also, my left leg looks ok and normal, its really just the right foot. Can you point me towards a solution/knowledgeable person please?
running metalhead
I just put together an extended 18 weeks JD hm plan with some shorter races in between that I don't specifically prepare for (12k & 17k) but just plan to run as the long/quality run
Mick Jogger : Just like me, LOL.I was right now setting up a 2Q plan from the 3rd edition with my aim set a the Amersfoort Marathon. I plan to attempt my sub 1:30 in the HM of the Leiden Marathon and I have a few other HM and shorter races in between with my running group that I plan to do as Q workouts. One of them is an Ekiden on a track so that I will be able to do some decent work (10K + warmup).
As soon as I hit home I'm going to create it here in RA, i still need to calculate some paces and stuff and as I have a full 18 weeks to go I'm maybe going to take the weekend off.
- Egmond ( 14 januari ) : 1:41:40 (21K)- Vondelparkloop ( 20 januari ) : 0:58.1 (10K but did 13.44!!!)- Twiskemolenloop ( 4 maart ) : 1:35:19 (3th M45!)
- Ekiden Zwolle (10K) ( 25 maart )- Rotterdam Marathon ( 8 april )- Leiden Marathon Halve ( 27 mei )- Marathon Amersfoort ( 10 juni)
Mick Jogger I think neutral is the way to go. Past thinking was to put runners in support shoes but nowadays neutral is considered a better way to allow you to run naturally. Your body will figure it out. You mentioned overtraining so just pull back when you feel you are overtraining again. Also log mileage on your shoes and learn when they get that dead feeling and bin them. Heel/toe drop seems to be a big consideration with alot of us. I struggle below 6mm so check your different models and see if they are similar
55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT
" If you don't use it you lose it, but if you use it, it wears out.
Somewhere in between is about right "
Thanks Piwi, ok good to know that the sales person was not just selling.
I usually retire my shoes at the 400-500km mark. I love having new running shoes. That's almost exclusively why I run!!! I am currently thinking of giving up on the Hoka's and go back to Brooks....
And this is were you kind of hit the nail on the head and I actually didn't realize this until now: my clifton4's have a heel to toe drop of 5mm only and it hurts my patella more then the Asics Nimbus 19 at 10mm and the On cloudsurfer at 7mm.
I need to research this further. Thanks for this! Too bad you guys aren't part of the 6 nations!
Intl. correspondent
...
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
Tool to generate Strava weekly
I wouldn't worry too much about overpronation.
Regarding the plan, the best way to maximize your training potential is to do what you plan: run races in the middle of it. Sure, you're not going to be specifically prepared for that distance, and you may be tired from training, but it'll give a good idea. What I do is adjust my VDOT one number faster than what these non-specific races on very tired legs give me. For example, let's say you run that 12K in about 47 minutes, which is a VDOt of 54. I would instead say that I can probably run one VDOT faster than that on non-tired legs. That adjustment has worked well for me.
Don't worry that JD only trains you when you're at "full potential." Trust me, just putting in the workouts, even if you're running them 5-10s per mile slower than you should, will help a lot.
The beauty of coming off of a break is that you don't NEED to train at your full potential: anything you do is going to make a world of difference. In fact, I would argue that the majority of your runs should be focusing on pure endurance, not tempo/interval pace. If you normally do something like 70-75% of your runs at easy pace, it should be higher when you are coming back.