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Yasso's 800s (Read 1138 times)

    Anyone experimented with this? I went out to do some today and seems simple enough, but doesn't seem as though it harbors a whole lot of benefit to it. My marathon is April 26, so I've got time to incorporate this into my training plan.
      Yasso's intrigued me the first time I read about them in The Complete Book of Running. You will hear both pros and cons on these, but I like them. Good luck.

      "Famous last words"  ~Bhearn

        For the last couple years, 800's have been my interval of choice. Before the Louisville Marathon I officially did the Yasso 800 session just as prescribed by Bart. I wasn't sucessful in achieving the time I felt I trained for but that was due to poor fueling during the race. I do believe that 800 meter intervals are a great workout and recovery times are flexible. I usually use equal distance recovery but for the Yasso session I used equal time. As for using the Yasso session as a predictor, I have slight doubts. IMHO, successfully completing the Yasso routine doesn't insure your race performance. I do believe that if you can't complete the Yasso's, your goal isn't within reach.

        At the end of the day, be happy with where you are and what you've accomplished.

        Spot


          Here is a response posted on CR a few years back. I saved it because I believe TG&P Oz is John Kellogg, a well respected elite coach. It appears to me that Yasso pace would be somewhere around what Tinman calls CV pace, where he claims you get the benefits of both threshold and VO2 improvement. TG&P Oz Cool Runner posted 02-24-2001 02:09 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The pace on "Yasso" 800s does typically fall somewhere between the optimal critical training zones. The efficacy of the Yasso 800s vis-a-vis other workouts will depend in part on your own recent running background (read: mileage) and on your basic abilities (i.e., do you have more talent for middle distances or are you a natural long distance runner?). As a general rule, though, Yasso 800s are slightly too fast relative to the pace which brings you to your lactate threshold (LT), and they are too slow relative to the pace which elicits your VO2max. If you run closer to your LT pace or closer to your VO2max pace, you will get a more cost-effective workout, provided you spend enough time at pace AND provided you control the lactate accumulation during the workout. In case you didn't know, a decent estimate of your LT pace is that which you could run for a one hour race (using an EVEN pacing strategy, of course). A decent estimate of your VO2max pace is that which you could run for a 10 minute race. Of course, this ASSUMES you are already trained well enough to run pretty hard for an hour and that you're capable of really hammering it balls-out for 10 min. In practice, you will usually exceed your LT (and will subsequently begin breathing noticeably harder or faster) after 18-22 min. at your LT pace. In Ex. Phys. parlance, the point of hyperventilation is called the Respiratory Compensation Point. Even though your blood lactate levels begin to rise faster at this point (actually, BEFORE this point), you can still maintain the pace for the full hour (give or take a bit) by relying more and more on anaerobic glycolysis (energy production) as the race progresses. Anyway, it turns out that 20-ish min. at LT pace provides optimal stimulus for improvement if you are running CONTINUOUSLY at that speed, and 34-42 min. at or just below (slower than) LT pace provides optimal stimulus for improvement if very short REST PERIODS are incorporated. All this has been determined and refined by trial-and-error, not by theory, so you can rely on it. At VO2max pace, 15-20 min. spent at or very near pace delivers the best results. It takes between 3 and 4 min. to achieve VO2max from a dead start if you're running evenly at this speed, but you can attain VO2max repeatedly during the middle and latter stages of a workout of repetitions as short as 1-2 min. if you orchestrate the rest periods correctly. Ideal rest periods for VO2max workouts are slightly shorter than the length of the previous run period (e.g., 2:00 at VO2max pace, 1:45 walk or 2:00 jog, repeat). If you rest longer than you run on this sort of workout, you'll actually accumulate MORE blood lactate (that's bad). This has to do with the phenomenon known as "venous pooling", which undermines the ability of the heart, liver, kidneys, and non-working skeletal muscles to take up the blood lactate and re-metabolize it. So bear that in mind - too much rest is counterproductive when doing a VO2max workout. Anyway, the repetition running I'd recommend in lieu of Yasso 800s includes the following workouts. LT workouts: 1.) 12 x 3 min. at your estimated LT pace, with 30-60 secs. rest periods between each (just start the next rep when you're ready, and as you get fitter, you'll get closer to 30 secs. rests). This workout is MOST effective if you select a pace which will allow you to run the FASTEST reps at the END of the workout without undue struggling (it should feel like a good, strong rhythm run that you'd do on the road if you felt good). 2.) 15-20 x 1 min. STARTING at your estimated LT pace (on the first 1-3 reps), slightly FASTER during the middle of the workout (get into a good rhythm here), and progressively faster still on the last 2-3 reps, with 20-30 secs. rest periods. Since those rests are so short, you'd better select a starting speed that doesn't get you in trouble early on, or you'll make the workout too anaerobic and it won't be as effective. VO2max workouts: 3.) 6 x 3 min. at your estimated VO2max pace, with just under 3 min. rest periods (some or all of this can be jogged). 4.) 12-15 x 1 min. STARTING at VO2max pace, slightly faster in the middle of the workout, progressively faster still over the last 2-3 reps, with 55-60 secs. rest periods. 5.) 5 x 5-6 min. at about 95% of your VO2max speed (about 15-20 secs. per mile SLOWER than VO2max pace), with roughly 3 min. rest periods between each (very easy jog on most of this rest period). Give those a try. Obviously, you've got to be reasonably fit be-FORE doing sessions such as these, AND you must cover all the other bases in your training (recovery runs, long runs, tempo runs, a few short races here and there, etc.). This is just GENERIC information and it DOESN'T tell you how to fit the workouts into an overall program. You'll have to be smart about that. If you do want to do the Yasso 800s, try doing them with rest periods of about HALF of the run periods rather than EQUAL to the run periods. Train hard and smart, but above all, enjoy.
            i ran yasso's during the first week of my taper. i peaked with 87 miles the week before that, and had 3 weeks over 80. i ran 7x800m, 2:53 average with 2 minutes rest between each. another marathon predictor is the fast finish long run; your fast pace at the end of a 20+ miler is a good predictor of marathon race pace. during my second 80 mile week i ran 23, with the last 5 as fast as i could, averaging 6:36. that also predicts 2:53. i'm racing next sunday in phoenix. i'll let you know what time i run.
              Yassos are used by some for two purposes: (1) As a training tool. For this purpose, the workout is moderately effective, but not optimal. The pace is too fast and the recoveries too long for a LT workout, and the pace is a little slower than optimal VO2max interval pace, although a full set of Yasso's (10) will pretty much get you to VO2max. Basically, it is better to run longer intervals at a slower pace with much shorter recoveries for LT training (they are called cruise intervals) or to run fewer (4-6) intervals that require 3-5 minutes at a slightly faster pace for VO2max training. (2) Marathon goal setting. For this purpose, Yaoos's are a "negative predictor". IOW, if you cannot complete 10x800 at Yasso pace, then you probably can not run the marathon in target time. OTOH, being able to complete the workout successfully doesn't necessarily mean that the target marathon time is realistic. For more details, see http://mysite.verizon.net/jim2wr/id45.html and http://mysite.verizon.net/jim2wr/id98.html.
                (2) Marathon goal setting. For this purpose, Yaoos's are a "negative predictor". IOW, if you cannot complete 10x800 at Yasso pace, then you probably can not run the marathon in target time. OTOH, being able to complete the workout successfully doesn't necessarily mean that the target marathon time is realistic.
                That's what I was trying to say. Wink I also 100% agree with everything else Jim2 said.

                At the end of the day, be happy with where you are and what you've accomplished.

                Mr R


                  One problem with talking about marathon training is that the limiting factors for the distance vary so much depending on the runner. For less experienced runners, LT is not nearly as important an issue as pure mechanical fatigue*. These runners will probably be best served by more total mileage and by fast finish long runs. I guess the purpose of the Yassos for this set would be to introduce them to intervals with a workout that isn't especially stressful. It could also improve economy, by making one more comfortable at high speeds. For more experienced runners, I like the Yassos as a 3rd workout. They'll put some strain on the heart without trashing the legs as much as a full-on VO2 workout, which isn't that important for the really long races. As a middle-distance guy, these are pretty worthless for prediction purposes, because they play to my strengths. Let's say I want to run a 2:30 marathon (which I can't do right now). That would mean that I'm running 2:30 800s with equal rest. Incidentally, this is about my VO2max pace. So far, everything makes sense, because Yassos should be slower than VO2max. The problem is that, if you're trained for speed, you can run your VO2 pace for quite a bit longer, with less rest. A VO2 workout I might to would be 5x5 miles at 5 minute pace, with a lap recovery (say 2 minutes). This is the same total volume at the same speed as Yasso prescribes, with longer intervals and significantly less rest, yet I am incapable of running a marathon at the pace that the Yasso's would suggest I can do. I'd be interested in hearing from runners who have found that it works as a positive predictor. I'm curious if there is a type of runner for whom the workout is very accurate.

                  What was the secret, they wanted to know; in a thousand different ways they wanted to know The Secret. And not one of them was prepared, truly prepared to believe that it had not so much to do with chemicals and zippy mental tricks as with that most unprofound and sometimes heart-rending process of removing, molecule by molecule, the very tough rubber that comprised the bottoms of his training shoes. The Trial of Miles, Miles of Trials. How could they be expected to understand that? -John Parker

                    Ray & Jim are saying that completing the Yasso 800 cycle is a necessary but not sufficient condition to achieving your marathon goal. I like 'em as a training tool but they take forever. I don't want to be out there running intervals forever. The recoveries could be shorter than Yasso prescribed, I think. IMHO. Yes


                    SMART Approach

                      I personally believe you should not incorporate Yassos into your training runs at your level. This is a tough work out and a max vo2 work out. It does not simulate your race. You need a couple big work outs per week with some quality focused on more threshold work, marathon pace work, some lactate work and miles miles miles. This is more effective for a good marathon performance (for you) than doing max v02 work outs which will erode your base. As you become more experienced (I am assuming you are not - at least your marathon time shows you can improve a lot). As you get some under your belt, you can incorporate a 10K training phase several months before training to help build some fire in the legs before the more specific marathon training takes place. You may want to wait a bit for this. Or you may not. If your miles are up there you can do a 10K training phase now. If you have lower miles, I would not do this and focus on marathon specific work outs and increasing miles. This is a helpful link. http://www.therunzone.com/TinmanMarathonTrainingPhilosophy.html

                      Run Coach. Recovery Coach. Founder of SMART Approach Training, Coaching & Recovery

                      Structured Marathon Adaptive Recovery Training

                      Safe Muscle Activation Recovery Technique

                      www.smartapproachtraining.com

                        That's what I was trying to say. Wink I also 100% agree with everything else Jim2 said.
                        Sorry, Ray. I didn't mean to echo you. But I didn't read all of the thread before I posted. Smile
                        JakeKnight


                          Before last springs marathons, I spent some time at the track figuring out the fastest I could run 10x800. It turned out to be 3:40. My prior marathon PR had been 4:11. Within a few weeks of running the Yasso's, I ran a 3:47 and a 3:41. And the 3:41 would have been 3:39 but for a cramp at mile 24. So were they amazingly accurate as a predictive tool? Or did I just pick a pace that matched about what I thought I could run a marathon at? I dunno. You decide. Modified to add my complete agreement with this:
                          As for using the Yasso session as a predictor, I have slight doubts. IMHO, successfully completing the Yasso routine doesn't insure your race performance. I do believe that if you can't complete the Yasso's, your goal isn't within reach.
                          I don't know if there any good at predicting, but I do believe that if I can't do them at 3:30, I can't run a 3:30 marathon. I guess maybe they're useful for showing your current probable limitations.

                          E-mail: eric.fuller.mail@gmail.com
                          -----------------------------

                            Ray & Jim are saying that completing the Yasso 800 cycle is a necessary but not sufficient condition to achieving your marathon goal.
                            Nope. I didn't say it was necessary. I was simply offering my opinion of it. Many folks think 800 meter intervals aren't the best thing to spend your time on. I personally, have been successful using 800 intervals and an 800 meter recovery. By success, I mean 20:30 5k speed and 2 BQ's (55-59 AD). Naturally, that's not success by someone with the ability of redfern.

                            At the end of the day, be happy with where you are and what you've accomplished.