12345

"ideal" weight - fact or fiction? (Read 2544 times)


Fat butt on couch

    , is it possible that a weight gain in muscle 

    could allow me to handle this mileage more regularly?

     

    What I'm trying to say is that I have thus far found that the lighter I am, the more "delicate" I am in terms of training volume. At 110 lbs, a 25 mile week might leave me feeling exhausted and needing recuperation.

     

    Is it possible?  Sure.  I doubt anyone has a definitive answer.

     

    Now for my opinion and observations.  Wink

     

    I've had the privilege of racing and training around a lot of hard-working runners over the years.  The trend I THINK I see is that runners with a larger bone structure are more resilient to training.  This means that two runners at opposite ends of this spectrum will differ significantly in weight...the one with larger bone structure will usually carry more muscle too.  The 5'10" guy with light bone structure may weigh 130lbs, but the larger bone structure guy 150lbs.  Take, for example, a Ritz or Rupp vs Solinsky.  It's well known that Solinsky runs a lot of his stuff faster without getting injured than more fine-structured teammates.

     

    The smaller frames guys tend to be faster...but not always.  

     

    I think people have an ideal weight, ie as light as possible while still being able to recover well.  Recovery is a funny beast.

    "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

     

    runnerdave67


      Maybe a better comparison for me would be Khannouchi (5'5", 125). According to the Internet, I have a "small" frame,

      but I weigh as much as Ritz, who is three inches taller than me. At his equivalent BMI, however, I know for a fact that I had less muscle mass and power than I do at my present weight.

       

      Dunno, could be the whole weight thing is overblown...maybe I'd be better off putting on a bit of weight to build muscle on, and then toning off a couple lbs of excess if I get more interested in racing.

        Maybe a better comparison for me would be Khannouchi (5'5", 125). According to the Internet, I have a "small" frame,

        but I weigh as much as Ritz, who is three inches taller than me. At his equivalent BMI, however, I know for a fact that I had less muscle mass and power than I do at my present weight.

         

        Dunno, could be the whole weight thing is overblown...maybe I'd be better off putting on a bit of weight to build muscle on, and then toning off a couple lbs of excess if I get more interested in racing.

         

        More important than weight is strength to weight ratio. If your weight goes up 5% but your strength and power goes up 10%, then you'll be a faster runner.

         

        Geb is your height and weighs 10-15 more pounds than you do.

        MrH


          Today was the end of a 10-day streak of 70 miles, and I recently logged my first 40+ mile week, which I think is about all I can handle

          right now (I was left stiff and sore from the harder runs.) In regard to this thread's topic, is it possible that a weight gain in muscle 

          could allow me to handle this mileage more regularly?

           

          What I'm trying to say is that I have thus far found that the lighter I am, the more "delicate" I am in terms of training volume. At 110 lbs, a 25 mile week might leave me feeling exhausted and needing recuperation.

           

          It's likely, looking at your log, that the fatigue issue is not related to weight or volume, but the frequency with which you are running race effort. The majority of your runs should be of the type you do only once every few weeks. I.e. An hour at 7:30 pace or slower. If those become your staple workout in place of 5k time trials you will likely find the increased volume comfortable. And after a few months don't be surprised to see a 5k time starting with 17:XX. And don't think about your weight.

          The process is the goal.

          Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call Destiny.

          runnerdave67


            More important than weight is strength to weight ratio. If your weight goes up 5% but your strength and power goes up 10%, then you'll be a faster runner.

             

            Geb is your height and weighs 10-15 more pounds than you do.

             Thanks - yeah, I'll have to do some experimenting to find my ideal weight, although I'm cognizant of the fact that this weight will

            vary depending on the event (i.e., 5-10K ideal weight may or may not be elite marathon weight.)

             

            MrH, thanks much for the advice about training volume. Just to make sure I understand correctly, you are saying to run more miles at an easy

            pace per week, with less tempo/speed workouts?

             

            I am shooting for 40-45 miles consistently per week, though I will need to be flexible depending on how I feel. Seeing as 5K is my event of interest right now, I'd like to do at least 1 quality 5K pace run per week, then perhaps 1 run of 4-5 miles at tempo pace, and a 60+ min run

            near the end of the week. Does that sound more reasonable?

              Dave, there is a huge disconnect right now between your training and your racing. Either you need to be running A LOT faster in your racing or A LOT slower in your training -- especially on your easy days. You and I run the same pace more or less on our easy days, and my 5k time is 4 minutes faster than yours.

               

              My guess is that it's a combination: you aren't racing to your potential AND you are training too fast, especially on your easy days. (These things are probably related.)

              MrH


                Yes - more miles at an easy pace.

                 

                A 'typical' varsity high school program for 5k runners your age would be one long run of 60+ minutes at a comfortable pace, one interval session and perhaps one tempo run. Everything else (say three other days of running and one rest day) would be easy pace for 45-60 minutes at something like 7:30 and 8:00 minutes per mile. These HS athletes average 35-45 miles per week and run anything between low 16s and low 18s based on how long they'd been doing it.

                The process is the goal.

                Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call Destiny.

                runnerdave67


                  Dave, there is a huge disconnect right now between your training and your racing. Either you need to be running A LOT faster in your racing or A LOT slower in your training -- especially on your easy days. You and I run the same pace more or less on our easy days, and my 5k time is 4 minutes faster than yours.

                   

                  My guess is that it's a combination: you aren't racing to your potential AND you are training too fast, especially on your easy days. (These things are probably related.)

                  Haha, more evidence that I need to ditch the watch on my easy runs, which I seem to have difficulty doing...

                   

                  In all seriousness, I suppose I know deep down that I just need to be more honest with myself... I don't know if it's common

                  for green runners to have that voice that constantly urges you to pick up the pace, even if the point is a slow run.

                   

                  Who knows, perhaps I could go further in the speed workouts if I run slower in the slow workouts. I think that when my system adapts to running at even moderate intensity for ALL of the time, it inhibits my ability to run even faster in "fast" workouts. For example, if I have

                  4 workouts a week at effort level 5, maybe that makes it harder to perform at effort level 8-9 in a hard workout than if I had run slower.

                  If this is true, it would confirm what I have read about the 'aerobic base' needed for this type of running.

                   

                  In sum, I'd like to go for more general aerobic workouts in my training, but with fewer, higher intensity speed workouts. Any suggestions

                  for a 35-45 mpw schedule? I don't know whether to assign workouts to specific days, or just try to hit a target mileage and % of speedwork.

                    It's likely, looking at your log, that the fatigue issue is not related to weight or volume, but the frequency with which you are running race effort. The majority of your runs should be of the type you do only once every few weeks. I.e. An hour at 7:30 pace or slower. If those become your staple workout in place of 5k time trials you will likely find the increased volume comfortable. And after a few months don't be surprised to see a 5k time starting with 17:XX. And don't think about your weight.

                     

                    Yea I second this. 

                     

                    Your easy pace also seems to be WAY to fast and wildly inconsistent.  Sometimes you tempo runs are slower than your easy runs, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Either you have trouble differentiating what's easy or your trying to force it when it's not going well. Tempo's are, in large part, about making fast smooth and effortless; not about running hard. When your doing it right it's a wonderful feeling of everything being in sync and your body effortlessly gliding along. If you aren't getting that feeling a mile or more in and it's a grind, I'd argue it's not necessary to force the tempo; just bag it and finish out the run at a nice easy pace. 

                     

                    I also see a lot of "race pace" in there. You definitely don't need that amount of high intensity work that often, even once a week is probably more than enough. 

                    They say golf is like life, but don't believe them. Golf is more complicated than that. "If I am still standing at the end of the race, hit me with a Board and knock me down, because that means I didn't run hard enough" If a lot of people gripped a knife and fork the way they do a golf club, they'd starve to death. "Don't fear moving slowly forward...fear standing still."

                    runnerdave67


                      I've created a potential 8-wk training schedule in my profile. Feedback appreciated!

                        You should read a book. I like Brad Hudson's Run Faster for the self-coached runner. Or Daniels' Running Formula. You don't need a schedule; you need to understand the principles of training.


                        Fat butt on couch

                          You should read a book. I like Brad Hudson's Run Faster for the self-coached runner. Or Daniels' Running Formula. You don't need a schedule; you need to understand the principles of training.

                           

                          True....I've rarely trained under a strict schedule...but sometimes writing one out (even if you don't end up following it to a "T") is helpful in getting the pieces in the right places.

                          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                           

                            You should read a book. I like Brad Hudson's Run Faster for the self-coached runner. Or Daniels' Running Formula. You don't need a schedule; you need to understand the principles of training.

                             

                            Agree. I've come to that realization the past few years. Especially if you keep tabs on how you are recovering. That will usually dictate your schedule. You might create a lofty schedule of a 20-miler every week, but your body might tell you soon enough that every other week, or every  3-4 weeks might be better for you.

                            Have to follow the body.

                             

                            --JimmyCool

                            log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #141

                             

                              You don't need a schedule; you need to understand the principles of training.

                              Hells yeah.

                              “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman

                                I've created a potential 8-wk training schedule in my profile. Feedback appreciated!

                                At the first glance, I thought; "Hmmm...  Kinda looks like our 'Running Wizard'..." and thought it would be funny if I started to criticize and it turned out if it WERE RW!! ;o)

                                 

                                Actually, 3 comments: If, say, your long run is 10-mile, you're doing "easy" runs of 7-miles 3 days out of the total of 6-days-a-week training.   That seems a bit too much.  I know you would probably counter by saying; "But those are my medium long runs..."  I think this is where many people have mixed things up too much.  With our "Lydiard" training, we work on blocks; you first work on your aerobic development, then work on leg power with hills, then do intervals and finally put them all together with tempo runs.  You put them together with necessary recovery runs in between.  It works well if you do a long run on weekend; one or two medium long runs with shorter recovery runs in between.  It works well if you continue doing long run on weekend but do intervals couple of times with maybe another longish run but at easier pace because now you're introducing quality--you don't want to increase quality AND volume at the same time.  So when I look at your plan, you have intervals on Monday, medium long run on Tuesday, tempo run on Wednesday, another medium long run on Thursday, day-off on Friday, long run on Saturday and finish up the week with yet another medium long run.  Bottom line; there's hardly any "recovery" except for one complete rest day.  If your focus is aerobic development, you may be better off doing, say, 10 (Sat), 3 easy (Sun), 6 (Mon), 3 easy (Tue), 7 (Wed), 5 easy (Thu), day-off (Fri)....something like that.  If you insist mixing them up with quality (intervals and/or tempo), then it's a whole different story...

                                 

                                Another one is intervals.  You're training for 5k race???  Why do you continue to increase the VOLUME of intervals way beyond 5k?  Unless 5k is merely a stepping stone to 10k or half marathon later on, why not increase the speed of those intervals?

                                 

                                Lastly, are you putting this together so you can race after 8 weeks?  Or are you putting this together so you can just continue increasing the volume of everything week by week after 8 weeks?  Or are you working toward a race after 8 weeks?  I guess, to be honest with you, I can't really see a purpose of this plan.

                                12345