So where have I heard this before??? (Read 368 times)

    More time on the ground always equals a slower velocity.  Nobody that advocates for it says that you should float in the air for long periods of time either.

     

    When we train sprinters we are not looking for them to land on their heels, roll, and drive forward which is what would be needed to increase ground contact time.  Elastic energy is far more effectively used by being a forefoot striker.  T-rex did not land on the back of it's foot!

     

    You brought up West Point.  I don't have a military background but three of my distance runners are at West Point and on the track team right now and I am friendly with the coach there.

     

    I agree with you about Chi running being a bunch of bunk.

     

    The rest, I have not figured out of you are trolling or not?

    bblack


       

       I have not figured out of you are trolling or not?

       

      Going to go out on a limb here and say its definitely a troll.

        I think he is a troll also, but giving out some harmful info!

         

        I would like to add some examples.  This data was collected and published by Ralph Mann.  Its a good example of what is needed to run faster in terms of body mechanics.  Since we are discussing human movement in relation to perfromance here are some numbers as they relate to sprinters at maximum velocity.

         

        Stride rate (steps/sec):

        Poor 4.46

        Good 4.76

         

        Stride Length (meters):

        Poor 2.47

        Good: 2.64

         

        Ground contact times for men (sec):

        Poor - .101

        Good - .087

         

        Air time (sec):

        Poor - .128

        Good - .123

         

        Upper leg recovery time, horizontal foot speed and distance at touchdown, trunk angles at touchdown, knee separation at touchdown, upper leg motion and rotational speed, lower leg motion and rotational speed are all measured markers of sprint mechanic performance.

        minmalS


        Stotan Disciple

          I reached out to Sport Jester and he is not trolling. He responded to my inquiry and did send me an article to read. A lot to things he references, are correct,  I did a few of the (excersises) things from his you tube videos. I would say the TRex walking was not very challenging, neither was the masking tape test. Does that mean I already have good form. U use wobble board frequently and surfed as a kid. So my core is strong and a strong core adds to stability in the exercises. I know my leg doesn't stride like a world class and that's what I would like to happen.

           

          An interesting thing is I tried to jump ahead rather than go slow (masking tape, treadmill walking) and I noticed if I squat my hips to do the Trex posture my leg swung back higher but I was doing this in the middle of my 2ks. I went 7:04, 6:46, 6:39, 6:38. I know I mucked it up but it was definitely a surprise to see my backkick come up that high.I try to do it in runs and it requires so much effort but was able to do it today. it also requires focus and concentration and on the last 400's I tended go between normal and squat. So I always teach lead with the hips but its weird I had a boomerang shape going with my core. I was really trying like he suggested.  It was difficult I guess I should start smaller but I wanted to incorporate it into my runs to see if it made a difference.

           

          I did this workout in Flyknit vapors and was way quicker than previous weeks so I have to try it without. but the butt kick was for real its weird feeling and it was hard to engage the whole time I guess that's why he advocates walking first to build and strengthen the requisite muscles.

           

          Ive been often called a troll but there is no trolling with me I call out bullshit and I think that's what he is trying to do call out bullshit in the way we think and try to improve as runners we are here to learn but we really aren't. I welcomed his imput and I will try and see if it works for me.

          Thinking should be done first, before training begins.

            My response was because I saw an insulting and arrogant post.  Then I read about increasing ground contact time for a faster pace which does not work for anyone.  I like how Ralph Mann puts it, "Physics does not care!"  It kind of says it all.  Either you are having a major foot collapse while running or you are spending going from heel to toe.  Neither is desirable.  The second you can work with but should not model.

             

            Then I read something about West Point which In have connections with.  I am sure their is some validity to some of it but the OP needs to go back to school starting with Newton.

            minmalS


            Stotan Disciple

              Otter, I tend to always agree with what you say.  Even now I agree maybe he could have been nicer in his initial approach.

              Still I looked past his delivery because I was interested in what he had to say about the technique leading to more efficient running. The article I read was written by a military guy and references Sport Jester. It  talks about African mothers and the efficiency in the way they walk and carry heavy objects it talks about activating muscles more efficiently. I guess that's the point about having soldiers in heavy gear maneuver more efficiently. He does have a military connection as some of the older videos have what appears to be a military guy performing and being coached through the exercises to strengthen requisite muscles.

               

              That's what peak my interest I am always interested in efficiency. if you think about it and consider the Vapor flies add about 4% more efficiency due to reducing strain on muscles, efficiency which translated to a whole lot of fast times for both elites and hobby joggers like me. Now ihe claims 20% more efficient running. If can get 5-10% more efficient I'd be super happy. Im going to continue see if it makes a difference I'm getting older and faster as a runner because I process everything and then throw out the junk rather than just dismissing things off the bat.

              Thinking should be done first, before training begins.

              sport jester


              Biomimeticist

                I don't describe myself as arrogant because I have absolutely no inflated self image as defined. I've presented my research at Ft. Leavenworth (which has the moniker, "The Intellectual Center of the Army," ) is no arrogant boast. My invitations of participation include Ft. McNaire, as well. Having also been nominated for a RAND Corporation grant puts me in a very different caliber of combat discussion. My respect comes from the references of vetting by people with far more combat experience and medical education than anyone posting in any training forum.

                 

                I have nothing to be arrogant about. I've done what others think impossible. That think one individual can change the way the entire US military trains and prepares for combat.

                 

                What I openly admit to is passion in all of this. My grandfather once told me there are only two types of people in the world. Those who read history and those who make it. Which would you rather do?

                 

                While I would love to post the names of the people I'm in contact with, they don't deserve to be bothered by idiots of the internet. Trust me, the athletic training industry knows who I am,what I teach, and why I teach it.  Don't you think if they could disprove my claims that they would have done it by now and shut me up?

                 

                Since they can't disprove me, they think leaving me Persona Non Grata will keep me from teaching an alternate training philosophy than what the training industry mandates warfighters and athletes to follow. While the training industry denies you science and then tries to sell you a more expensive product to accomplish what running coaches or strength and conditioning coaches never will, I'd rather teach you how the best athletes in the world actually run.

                 

                It's simply a bait and switch game with consumers. I'm trying to save people as much money as I can.

                Experts said the world is flat

                Experts said that man would never fly

                Experts said we'd never go to the moon

                 

                Name me one of those "experts"...

                 

                History never remembers the name of experts; just the innovators who had the guts to challenge and prove the "experts" wrong

                  I don't describe myself as arrogant because I have absolutely no inflated self image as defined. I've presented my research at Ft. Leavenworth (which has the moniker, "The Intellectual Center of the Army," ) is no arrogant boast. My invitations of participation include Ft. McNaire, as well. 

                   

                  You spelled Ft. McNair wrong.

                   

                  From Wikipedia:

                  Fort Lesley J. McNair is a United States Army post located on the tip of Greenleaf Point, the peninsula that lies at the confluence of the Potomac River and the Anacostia River in Washington, D.C. To the peninsula's west is the Washington Channel, while the Anacostia River is on its south side.

                    That's what peak my interest I am always interested in efficiency. if you think about it and consider the Vapor flies add about 4% more efficiency due to reducing strain on muscles, efficiency which translated to a whole lot of fast times for both elites and hobby joggers like me. Now ihe claims 20% more efficient running. If can get 5-10% more efficient I'd be super happy. Im going to continue see if it makes a difference I'm getting older and faster as a runner because I process everything and then throw out the junk rather than just dismissing things off the bat.

                     

                    You are too kind!

                     

                    A lot of what the Vaporfly's are taking advantage of is that elastic energy.  It's why it is of no disadvantage to be a blade runner.  It has been shown that our calf muscles actually flex just prior to impact.

                     

                    As I said, increasing ground contact time is about the worst advice anyone can give for faster running.  There is no way around it.

                     

                    Our OP can call us all "idiots" or also in his words, "But to be honest I truly thought you toilet vultures would have at least referenced this article in my memory...", but he has much to learn.  Calling people names proves nothing.  

                    runnerswhirled


                      t rex = race walker

                       

                      african women = Interestingly, they apply this trick only when they are carrying things on their heads. When they walk unloaded, Dr. Heglund found, they waste as much energy as all other walkers. It is only as they begin to balance heavy loads on their heads that they change their steps.

                       

                       

                      if yall want to walk while balancing loads in your next race he'll teach you how.

                       

                      teach anyone to run 20% faster = Burfoot, the winner of the 1968 Boston Marathon, says none of his colleagues could replicate the 20-percent gains of in speed and efficiency that Vervloet promised

                       

                      best to leave sportsjester to his own thing.

                      minmalS


                      Stotan Disciple

                         

                        You are too kind!

                         

                        A lot of what the Vaporfly's are taking advantage of is that elastic energy.  It's why it is of no disadvantage to be a blade runner.  It has been shown that our calf muscles actually flex just prior to impact.

                         

                        As I said, increasing ground contact time is about the worst advice anyone can give for faster running.  There is no way around it.

                         

                        Our OP can call us all "idiots" or also in his words, "But to be honest I truly thought you toilet vultures would have at least referenced this article in my memory...", but he has much to learn.  Calling people names proves nothing.  

                         

                        I was wondering if he meant more ground contact by increased cadence.

                        I read the articles and I watched the videos. I remember a Herb Elliott interview where they mentioned his coach and Herb was like you listen and you take and incorporate what is useful and file away the rest when asked about Cerutty and his numerous contradictions. You think about it,  you try, it doesn't work then you discard.

                         

                        Yesterday I did two workouts to see which one moved me faster.  If nothing else I had an awesome time testing Sport Jester vs my own self described horrific form.

                         

                        2/4/20 @ 5 AM 11.3 mi w/  4X 2k @ 7:04, 6:46, 6:39, 6:38

                         

                        2/4/20 @ 8 PM 9.5 mi w/ 8x 1k @ 3:42, 3:33, 3:30, 3:27, 3:20, 3:14, 3:09, 3:05

                         

                        Think \ Test \ Throwout

                        Thinking should be done first, before training begins.


                          Of your links, not only were both a complete joke, but this farce is utter garbage; "You are only moving forward when airborne. So the more time you spend airborne and the less time you spend on the ground, the faster you run."

                          Um, science says that when you're airborne, you're actually slowing down, not moving faster. All speed is generated through ground contact. The definition of running is to generate enough power whereas both feet leave the ground. Hopefully that expenditure is sufficient to propel you up and forward. But once your feet leave the ground, your acceleration, while enough to push you airborne, begins to decrease at the moment of foot release until you hit the vertical apogee in your pendulum arc and descend.

                          But if you want to keep the topic simplistic, if speed is stride length times turnover rates, then increasing stride length is your primary focus of biomechanic skill improvement with the greatest return benefit. If biomechanic alteration of your posture can increase your stride reach, then science says as a bipedal athlete doubling your stride length is possible.

                          Also contact power generation can only be increased through increasing contact time. If you want to think in terms of engines, a gasoline engine derives power by high RPM, which is what coaches preach in turnover. But if you take the diesel engine approach and focus on increasing ground contact time, you can generate more speed through optimizing the torque generation of tendon efficiency until you need to push off.

                           

                          Your posted study validated that exact fact and why I teach the techniques which optimizes horizontal energy expenditure rather than wasting it on vertical displacement. I’ve written that the best American runners push themselves up four inches per step while the elite only lift ½-3/4 inch.

                          If Weyand or anyone else actually took the time to ask an ostrich how they run, they prefer to focus on developing the slowest turnover rates possible to increase ground contact time, which is why they expend 35% less muscle energy to move the same amount of weight.
                          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21030429


                          Preaching forward lean will not only slow you down but decrease your stride length. It forces you into quicker turnover rates to compensate for the increase outward rotation of the foot necessary to maintain balance. Which even more sad of your vulture reality is the simple rebarfing of the uselessness of Chi Running. "Also try tilting your whole body very slightly forward from the ankles (not the waist!)" Funny that when you read a plagiarized statement barfed years ago, that you lack the skills or intelligence recognize it…

                           

                          "most runners lean forward but they tend to do it from the waist. In chi running, the forward lean should come from the ankles instead. This forward lean means that the runner is essentially falling forward which takes no energy and is one of the reasons chi running is said to be energy efficient.

                          https://www.hfe.co.uk/blog/principles-benefits-chi-running/

                           

                          Dreyer never coached an athlete to win Boston, and neither will your useless fool. And if you think Fitzgerald is intelligent, then neither will you.

                           

                          In fact if you want to learn more about forward lean and why it increases your risk of in shin splints read that topic post of mine.


                          Of course, the biggest joke to the toilet vultures is that I've been regularly accused of refusing to have my techniques tested. Which publicly is no longer true and of formal military record. Which explains why for some reason, the vultures are silent...

                          And since I've also been told that if my techniques truly were more efficient that nobody would turn down the opportunity to learn from me, I’ll take this opportunity for any vulture to prove their pathetic worth. Since your garbage man thinks he understands running, why don't you contact him and ask to have my techniques tested and publicly validated or discredited.

                          I can teach anyone to run 20% faster mimicking T-Rex running mechanics. I can prove reduction in wasted energy expenditure in vertical lift. I can prove a direct measurable improvement in locomotion economy. If Weyand, or your pathetic fool Mr. Fitzgerald were truly interested in improving running performance ask to contact me if they have the guts.

                           

                          It’s been said that there is no conspiracy to prevent athletes from learning what I teach. Now here’s your chance to contact those individuals and challenge them to test me because I’ll gladly prove what I teach works for anyone. And now I have the clinical proof to back me up when they refuse, you'll know its because they refuse to admit in print I know more than they do.


                          That you all post here wanting to run faster yet think listening to the same barf regurgitated by people with barstool educations in human biology will give you the advice to do it, only leaves me laughing my ass off to be honest.

                          It's pretty clear to me that he is not advocating for increased ground contact through a higher stride frequency.  Let's let him answer for it.


                            If Weyand or anyone else actually took the time to ask an ostrich how they run, they prefer to focus on developing the slowest turnover rates possible to increase ground contact time, which is why they expend 35% less muscle energy to move the same amount of weight.
                            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21030429

                             

                             

                            This is the full study jester had referenced (and misunderstood) for anyone that wants to read through it:

                             

                             

                            https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsif.2010.0466

                             

                            The purpose of the study was to use as an example an animal of similar speed that is better able to take advantage of elastic energy.  Within the study (again, this is the study you reference) you will find in table 1 that the ostrich while it has a longer stance time it also has a higher step frequency than humans and a shorter stride length at the same speed contrary to what you have said:

                             

                            <caption>

                            Table 1.Spatial–temporal gait parameters during running in humans and ostriches. Data are from running at 3.25 and 3.24 m s−1 in humans and ostriches, respectively (mean ± s.d.).

                            Collapse

                            </caption>
                              stride time (s) stance time (s) swing time (s) stride frequency (Hz) stride length (m) duty factor
                            human 0.786 ± 0.032 0.255 ± 0.025 0.531 ± 0.032 1.28 ± 0.05 2.64 ± 0.28 0.327 ± 0. 025
                            ostrich 0.694 ± 0.006 0.291 ± 0.012 0.403 ± 0.018 1.44 ± 0.01 2.27±0.51 0.423 ± 0. 030

                            sport jester


                            Biomimeticist

                              It's pretty clear to me that he is not advocating for increased ground contact through a higher stride frequency.  Let's let him answer for it.

                               

                              So if I wrap a Soldier wearing 135lbs of equipment and record a heart rate at 7% incline on a treadmill moving as I teach it, how does it measure a lower beat per minute rate than walking normally at 0% incline. How do you do more work for less energy?

                               

                               

                              Oh, and by the way if you want to discuss track running, I'll ask you this: Why are track racing events held in counter clockwise rotation and not clockwise?

                               

                              Because if you're an orthopedic surgeon attending one of my classes, I'd ask you to elaborate your answer and explain how it applies to preventing ACL tears?

                               

                              Not to mention this study I use...

                              https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11053354

                              Experts said the world is flat

                              Experts said that man would never fly

                              Experts said we'd never go to the moon

                               

                              Name me one of those "experts"...

                               

                              History never remembers the name of experts; just the innovators who had the guts to challenge and prove the "experts" wrong

                              wcrunner2


                              Are we there, yet?

                                 

                                Oh, and by the way if you want to discuss track running, I'll ask you this: Why are track racing events held in counter clockwise rotation and not clockwise?

                                 

                                 

                                https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305730990_The_Reason_Why_Do_Athletes_Run_Around_the_Track_Counter-_Clockwise

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