Why Is the Republican Field So Extreme? (Read 2137 times)

    Apparently, she was joking...

     

    "I don't know how much God has to do to get the attention of the politicians. We've had an earthquake; we've had a hurricane. He said, 'Are you going to start listening to me here?' Listen to the American people because the American people are roaring right now. They know government is on a morbid obesity diet and we've got to rein in the spending."

     

    Joking?  Maybe. Not sure that I buy it, and regardless, it is maybe too soon...

     

    The way we use cynical ("pessimistic or suspicious person") and the way historians use cynical ("a disingenuous or dishonest move/speech/policy") seem to be very different. But, only at first blush. 

     

    I think people who make speeches like this are totally pessimistic about goodness and a truly better world, to the point of being corrupt .  I think they figure, "Well, I should at least use this stuff to make a power grab.  I'm sure I can get a critical mass fired up."  And out it comes. 

    "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus


    jfa

      What's the over/under on the appearance of an atom bomb on this one? 15 pages?

       

      I know it's bad etiquette to self quote, but what Trent said.

       

       

       

       

       

       

        I know it's bad etiquette to self quote, but what Trent said.

         

         

         

         

         

        Scout7


          Firstly, I will say that this thread delivered more than expected.  Awesome.  And, as I said previously, "Dance, puppets, dance!"

           

          Secondly, I will say that you're all a bunch of idiots, and have rather nicely highlighted the OP to a degree.

           

          To Jeff, I would say that extreme situations breed extremism.  Unfortunately, we've had a rather extreme series of events in the past decade or so, and they have built up to our current state.  The reality is that people are pissed off, and most of them aren't sure what they are pissed off about.  So, they find something that somehow resonates with something else within them, and they embrace it.  The biggest forces at play here are their backgrounds.  Some people feel that they have worked hard to get ahead, so everyone should have the same experience.  Other people have seen the abject desperation of those without hope, and want to find a way to help those who seem unable to help themselves.  Most of us fall somewhere in the middle.  Whatever those experiences have been, they have shaped our beliefs, our philosophies, about how we should live and how we should govern and be governed.  Political philosophy is tied to personal philosophy, and it is a sad state of affairs that few people have taken time to sit down and think, critically and honestly, about what they believe and why they believe it.  It takes time and effort, and it's much easier to have a belief that makes some sense and to accept it and move on.

           

          I have no interest at this point in pointing out the mistakes and issues each political party has; you've all done that quite well already anyway.  If anything, this entire thread should be view as educational, because it highlights exactly what the issue is today, and why we are at the point we are at.  Any conversation can very easily be broken down once the finger-pointing starts.

           

          Science is awesome.  Scout for overlord.


          Why is it sideways?

            Firstly, I will say that this thread delivered more than expected.  Awesome.  And, as I said previously, "Dance, puppets, dance!"

             

            Secondly, I will say that you're all a bunch of idiots, and have rather nicely highlighted the OP to a degree.

             

            To Jeff, I would say that extreme situations breed extremism.  Unfortunately, we've had a rather extreme series of events in the past decade or so, and they have built up to our current state.  The reality is that people are pissed off, and most of them aren't sure what they are pissed off about.  So, they find something that somehow resonates with something else within them, and they embrace it.  The biggest forces at play here are their backgrounds.  Some people feel that they have worked hard to get ahead, so everyone should have the same experience.  Other people have seen the abject desperation of those without hope, and want to find a way to help those who seem unable to help themselves.  Most of us fall somewhere in the middle.  Whatever those experiences have been, they have shaped our beliefs, our philosophies, about how we should live and how we should govern and be governed.  Political philosophy is tied to personal philosophy, and it is a sad state of affairs that few people have taken time to sit down and think, critically and honestly, about what they believe and why they believe it.  It takes time and effort, and it's much easier to have a belief that makes some sense and to accept it and move on.

             

            I have no interest at this point in pointing out the mistakes and issues each political party has; you've all done that quite well already anyway.  If anything, this entire thread should be view as educational, because it highlights exactly what the issue is today, and why we are at the point we are at.  Any conversation can very easily be broken down once the finger-pointing starts.

             

            Science is awesome.  Scout for overlord.

             

            Nice post. I thought Tramps' post (page 12, scroll down) killed the thread because it was pretty much comprehensively awesome. I agree particularly with the idea that science rocks, and it makes me sad (sometimes angry) that issues like evolution and global warming are used as wedges.

             

            Hopefully the extremism is just trying to get people to pay attention to politics way too early.

             

            Scout alludes to this, and people at various points talked about this thread being sorta uncivil or as exemplary of problems in political discourse, but I didn't really find it to be that way. Some people took pot shots, but folks were able to laugh them off. We disagreed, but not in ways that led to hate. What more do you want?

            Scout7


              To clarify my point, it wasn't that people were being uncivil.  I don't see civility as being a major problem in these discussions, or in our government either (it happens, but it's rare and everyone generally agrees when actual decorum has broken).

               

              No, the problem is the entrenching and intractability of both sides.  I think this happens for a number of different reasons, and those reasons will vary based on the setting (running forum vs. campaign trail vs. halls of government), but I think that political beliefs are tied strongly to our core personal beliefs about what is "right", what is "good", that most forms of rhetoric will bring about a sense of perceived aggression, which is be responded to with aggression, thus forming a rather disappointing feedback loop.  The only way to break out of the loop is for one side or both to step back and try to separate out some of the emotion.  Stepping back is far harder to do when your core beliefs are on the line, or when you are trying to maintain a sense of appearances for the people who have tasked you with being a strong representative.

               

              The issues that are currently being debated and discussed tend to ignore the actual, fundamental issues and causes, or at least many of the proposed solutions certainly seem to.  Unfortunately, we are not helping ourselves by drawing lines in the sand.  It's a strategic move that tends to create much bigger issues further down the road.


              Why is it sideways?

                To clarify my point, it wasn't that people were being uncivil.  I don't see civility as being a major problem in these discussions, or in our government either (it happens, but it's rare and everyone generally agrees when actual decorum has broken).

                 

                No, the problem is the entrenching and intractability of both sides.  I think this happens for a number of different reasons, and those reasons will vary based on the setting (running forum vs. campaign trail vs. halls of government), but I think that political beliefs are tied strongly to our core personal beliefs about what is "right", what is "good", that most forms of rhetoric will bring about a sense of perceived aggression, which is be responded to with aggression, thus forming a rather disappointing feedback loop.  The only way to break out of the loop is for one side or both to step back and try to separate out some of the emotion.  Stepping back is far harder to do when your core beliefs are on the line, or when you are trying to maintain a sense of appearances for the people who have tasked you with being a strong representative.

                 

                The issues that are currently being debated and discussed tend to ignore the actual, fundamental issues and causes, or at least many of the proposed solutions certainly seem to.  Unfortunately, we are not helping ourselves by drawing lines in the sand.  It's a strategic move that tends to create much bigger issues further down the road.

                 

                All this is true, but the flip side of this is that we are adults (more or less) and we have strong positions, lines in the sand, etc. What I like about threads like this (when I'm not losing my shit) is that they allow me to articulate and clarify my own positions--draw those lines. That's valuable work, and that articulation probably already changes my positions.

                 

                Also, those articulations--and the responses that others give--continue to work on us and may change us fundamentally down the road. We never change our habits of mind quickly, and for good reason. They've worked to get us where we are.

                 

                So yeah. 

                  move along, nothing to see

                  "Famous last words"  ~Bhearn

                  Scout7


                    All this is true, but the flip side of this is that we are adults (more or less) and we have strong positions, lines in the sand, etc. What I like about threads like this (when I'm not losing my shit) is that they allow me to articulate and clarify my own positions--draw those lines. That's valuable work, and that articulation probably already changes my positions.

                     

                    Also, those articulations--and the responses that others give--continue to work on us and may change us fundamentally down the road. We never change our habits of mind quickly, and for good reason. They've worked to get us where we are.

                     

                    So yeah. 

                     

                    I agree with you, but would add that the manner in which we draw those lines and articulate our positions is a big determinant of how others will perceive our positions and thus affect their responses, which will in turn affect ours.

                     

                    In other words, stating your beliefs in a concise manner that attempts to avoid strong appeals to negative emotions will elicit an entirely different sort of discussion than one where, say, people throw out random quotes in an attempt to highlight some minor point, or use strong language to try to emphasize something.  There's a difference in approach, and that difference is what I see as being a big part of it.

                      I agree with you, but would add that the manner in which we draw those lines and articulate our positions is a big determinant of how others will perceive our positions and thus affect their responses, which will in turn affect ours.

                       

                      In other words, stating your beliefs in a concise manner that attempts to avoid strong appeals to negative emotions will elicit an entirely different sort of discussion than one where, say, people throw out random quotes in an attempt to highlight some minor point, or use strong language to try to emphasize something.  There's a difference in approach, and that difference is what I see as being a big part of it.

                       

                      http://www.theonion.com/articles/why-cant-i-sell-any-of-these-fucking-bibles,10876/

                       

                       

                       

                       

                      LedLincoln


                      not bad for mile 25

                        In my childhood, say up to 1965, we experienced contentious elections, but were taught that once the election was over, Democracy Had Spoken, and the winners were Our President and Our Congressmen, and all were expected to refer to them with respect as did the media.  Democracy above politics.

                         

                        Sometime in the intervening years, the political sociologists were brought into the game, and the politics took precedence over good government.  Wedge issues were trumped up to force candidates into partisan extremes and it became much more difficult for elected officials to work together.

                         

                        So it seems to me.

                        C-R


                          Your bomb looks like a recent Republican first lady. 

                           

                           

                          or cauliflower.  kind of all the same really. 

                           

                           

                          Perhaps this might be polarizing but.....

                           


                          "He conquers who endures" - Persius
                          "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

                          http://ncstake.blogspot.com/

                            "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus

                            LedLincoln


                            not bad for mile 25

                              Perhaps this might be polarizing but.....

                               

                              Smile  For some reason, I'm not feeling polarized.


                              Kalsarikännit

                                Back to the OP, I guess I am kind of surprised that in fifteen pages no one has mentioned their extreme (and disturbing) attitude towards people that are gay.  It goes beyond the marriage debate.  Perry has compared gays to alcoholics.  Bachmann's husband is trying to "fix" homosexuals as if they are broken.  It is beyond disturbing.  I don't understand how they get a second of air time when they are essentially spewing hate speech.  If George Wallace was to appear in this day and age, no one would tolerate him, and yet we stand by and tolerate these people because their intolerant views are supposed to reflect their Christian beliefs?  Well, scripture was used to defend the idea that interracial marriage was unacceptable, too.  It doesn't make it ok.

                                 

                                The worst part is, I laugh these people off as a bunch of unelectable whack-jobs, and then I hop on a plane.  My travels in hiking and trail running take me to some really rural, backwater places.  The things I overhear scare the hell out of me.  I now worry these people are electable.  When I travel I meet loads of people that don't believe in global warming (no matter the cause), won't even ponder if evolution is possible, and openly talk about "faggots" (sorry), and how they are child molesters, want special rights, are trying to recruit their children, and have an agenda.  Nobody blinks at these claims.  I don't even try to argue.  It is all I can to to not stand there with my mouth hanging open.  What do you do when some 300 lb fatass who smells like he hasn't showered for a week and is in old crappy stained shirt tells you he'll kick the ass of any gay guys because he doesn't want them hitting on and bothering him in a bar?  Do you laugh or cry?

                                 

                                These tea party gatherings have gotten huge.  The reminder that for a lot of the country these people aren't extreme really, really worries me.

                                I want to do it because I want to do it.  -Amelia Earhart