Forums >General Running>Change my 5k program
I'm really motivated to set a 5k PR this year. I'm even cutting back on weight lifting.
This is my current program. What one or two changes would you recommend to improve my 5K performance? I do stretch already (dynamic plus really focusing on hip flexors after running).
Monday 4 miles easy
Wednesday 5-6 miles, 2 warm up plus 3-4 miles speedwork, a track workout or a tempo run or intervals of some kind, varying
Thursday 4 miles easy
Saturday 7 miles easy
Total 20 miles
Would you:
1. Change an easy day to a quality workout day (intervals, tempo, etc).
2. Add more easy miles to the days I am already running
3. Add another day of easy running.
4. Add another day of speedwork.
5. Add miles to the long run.
6. None of the above, something else
Born: 1973
Marathon PR: 3:44 (2000)
5k PR: 22:02 (2022)
1 mile PR: 6:09 (2022)
Goals:
5k - 21:42
Mile - 5:59
400m - 1:10
5, 3, then 2.
Runners run
SMART Approach
You may get the theme here as we go along. More miles is the ticket not only for your current goal but for goals going forward. By adding miles you add more base, more mitochondria, more strength which will allow you down the road to add another speed or quality day.
Day 1 5 Easy w/ striders or hill surges
Day 2 6-8 w/ quality work and/or speed
Day 3 4-5 Easy
Day 4 4-5 w/striders
Day 5 8-10 Miles easy with with occasional fast finish last mile or two or mix in some tempos miles in the middle if Day 2 was a true speed day.
Put together a graduall progression vs just jumping into this. In 4-6 months you can add another quality day and then keep long run comfy paced and 9-12 miles.
Run Coach. Recovery Coach. Founder of SMART Approach Training, Coaching & Recovery
Structured Marathon Adaptive Recovery Training
Safe Muscle Activation Recovery Technique
www.smartapproachtraining.com
so here I am two years later
I set a PR 22:02 (my unofficial time was 22 even) one year ago but this year only ran one race and due to recovery from an injury, happily ran 22:27
My current schedule is
Mon 5 easy, squats/deadlifts
Tue pullups, rows, bench//pushups
Wed 7 with CV workout 4x1000 at 7:25
Thu 5 easy, squats/deadlifts
Fri pullups, rows, press
Sat 10 easy
Sun pullups, bench/pushups
two questions
1. I did 2 of the 3 things suggested last year, my long run and my easy days are both longer. I didn't set a PR but I am older and was recovering from an injury. That said, if I do nothing different at all, will I make more progress ?
2. i am planning to do something different. I want to add hills; strides; and form drills. was going to add hills Mondays or every other Monday. push my long run to 11 and my wednesday run to 8. I'm also going to seriously focus on core four times a week. Thoughts?
The consistency element certainly is key and will help but I just think you need to run more to have any chance of getting your 5K time closer to 20 minutes. If you can get your miles well into the 30s and near 40 you put yourself in a better place. I am all in on strength but lifting weight will not directly correlate to making you a faster runner. Adding hills as a strength component is more sport specific for sure. You need a 5th day of running and also a progression plan in place and variety as well. Today you may be doing 3-4 x 1000m w/ 90 sec recoveries but 3 months from now it may be 6-8 x 1000m at 60 sec recoveries to just give you an example. I like stacking speed onto CV but in smaller volumes. You can even stack hill surges with stamina. Just an example below of what you could work up to in months ahead
Monday - 7-9 Miles w/ tempo type workout stacked w/ speed and/or hills
Tuesday - Cross training
Wednesday 7-9 miles w/ CV work stacked w/ speed and/or hills
Thursday 5 Miles Recovery
Friday - Cross Training
Saturday 12-14 Miles Long Easy to Steady
Sunday 5 Miles Recovery
Have you considered doing the leg specific strength on the same days as run workouts? Looking at your most recent schedule, maybe it would be Wednesday & Saturday. Do the activity that is most important to you at that time first. Basically, it's keeping the easy days truly easy and the hard days, hard. It will potentially hurt the strength session if you run in the am and then lift in the pm.
The consistency element certainly is key and will help but I just think you need to run more to have any chance of getting your 5K time closer to 20 minutes. If you can get your miles well into the 30s and near 40 you put yourself in a better place. I am all in on strength but lifting weight will not directly correlate to making you a faster runner. Adding hills as a strength component is more sport specific for sure. You need a 5th day of running and also a progression plan in place and variety as well. Today you may be doing 3-4 x 1000m w/ 90 sec recoveries but 3 months from now it may be 6-8 x 1000m at 60 sec recoveries to just give you an example. I like stacking speed onto CV but in smaller volumes. You can even stack hill surges with stamina. Just an example below of what you could work up to in months ahead Monday - 7-9 Miles w/ tempo type workout stacked w/ speed and/or hills Tuesday - Cross training Wednesday 7-9 miles w/ CV work stacked w/ speed and/or hills Thursday 5 Miles Recovery Friday - Cross Training Saturday 12-14 Miles Long Easy to Steady Sunday 5 Miles Recovery
sorry for the delay I've been sick for a week (and not running much )
- I have consistently been running 23-27 miles for about 1.5 years
- however 3 years ago when I was only running 12-15 miles but doing mostly fast runs, I ran nearly the same time that I ranks a PB last fall I don't think a little aging explains it.
- I believe you that if I ran 30, 40, 60, or 100 miles a week I would be a faster runner.
- However I am already doing many of the things you suggested a couple years ago, and didn't really get faster. I believe that is partly because in order to get to the higher miles, I cut back on the speedwork. Basically I was doing a lot of runs in the tempo range plus or minus, and now I'm doing a lot of runs in my slow and easy range.
- today I don't think the next step is yet more miles ad infinitum. I haven't seen enough improvement going from 12-15 to 23-27 that incentives me to go to 30-40.
- I think the next step is to maintain my current long run of 10-12, maintain or go up slightly on my miles, and do either a higher quality speed workout or 2 harder runs per week. See my reasoning below. Either way it might mean adding a 5th running day, which is difficult but feasible, and in which case I would also follow Half Krazy's recommendation to do the leg weights the same day I do a hard run, so I truly have 3 easy days off (2 rest, one very short/easy day with no weights).
- I have mixed feelings about the CV workout I've been doing, following the link someone in this forum posted (possibly you... not sure). Anyway it's warm up, 4x1000 at CV pace with 60-90 sec recovery, then 2x200 at 400 pace, then cool down. I enjoy the workout, but find it's not very hard. I have to make an effort to stay in the CV range and not go too fast. I understand the rationale is to train my Type IIa fibers to be more aerobic, that makes sense. However, CV running is considerably slower than 5k pace. By doing only a long run, a CV workout, and 2 easy runs, I never run above or even at my 5k pace during training. I think that is a mistake. That's partly why I think I need a second speed workout during the week, something at or above my 5k pace, either last 5k or goal pace. Either that, or as the 'only' speed workout of the week, CV isn't the right run, in which case I should replace it with something else.
Thanks for reading, I appreciate your additional suggestions.
However, CV running is considerably slower than 5k pace. By doing only a long run, a CV workout, and 2 easy runs, I never run above or even at my 5k pace during training. I think that is a mistake.
"Shut up Legs!" Jens Voigt
That CV workout sounds more like a tempoish workout to me. Some people don't really respond to that kind of training. Maybe try one of the old standby workouts like 5x1000m at race pace (5K pace). These will hurt. The recoveries can be longer, like 400m jogs.
Running more could also work. It depends upon the type of athlete you are. Are you more "sprint" oriented or do you thrive on miles? 5K is an endurance event so it makes sense to run more. But you don't want to just run lots of slow miles all of the time since 5K is also about V02 max. If you lack basic speed then you need to get to the track and do 200m, 400m repeats. If you lack speed endurance you need to do 800m, 1000m repeats. Recoveries should be long for basic speed. Recoveries should be medium for speed endurance. Work down to less recovery time but at the beginning make them longer. Learn how to pace yourself at the track. You should be able to feel each 200m and if you are close to the target pace.
My fastest 5Ks were when I was younger, running more (40-50mpw) AND doing speedwork at the track not tempos.
yes it's coming in at 7:45 or so whereas my tempo is at 8. And the 5 x 1000 5k pace workouts you describe are indeed very widely recommended, and I do find those workouts harder, whether at recent 5k pace or goal pace. Mostly what I see is 3 min recovery jogs, 400 or a little longer.
Village people
I think you need to add some shorter speed work at faster than your 5km time.
yes what about this:
Monday 5-6 total including w/u and c/d: 5k pace progression (week before race ends at 5x5 min at 5k effort with 3 min recovery); deadlifts, squats
Tuesday off
Wednesday 7 including CV workout, deadlifts and squats
Thursday 5 easy
Friday off
Saturday 10-12 long and leg strength (won't be heavy)
Sunday 3-5 easy
- I have mixed feelings about the CV workout I've been doing, following the link someone in this forum posted (possibly you... not sure). Anyway it's warm up, 4x1000 at CV pace with 60-90 sec recovery, then 2x200 at 400 pace, then cool down. I enjoy the workout, but find it's not very hard. I have to make an effort to stay in the CV range and not go too fast. I understand the rationale is to train my Type IIa fibers to be more aerobic, that makes sense. However, CV running is considerably slower than 5k pace. By doing only a long run, a CV workout, and 2 easy runs, I never run above or even at my 5k pace during training. I think that is a mistake. That's partly why I think I need a second speed workout during the week, something at or above my 5k pace, either last 5k or goal pace. Either that, or as the 'only' speed workout of the week, CV isn't the right run, in which case I should replace it with something else. Thanks for reading, I appreciate your additional suggestions.
If CV pace feels easy you are not at right pace. It is pace you could hold for 30 minutes. For most it is between 5K-10K pace. It is not significantly slower than 5K race pace. This is the value of having a coach....to monitor your workouts and progression. There has to be periodization. Week 1 on a BIG DAY could be volume + 4 x 800m CV sessions stacked with 6 x 100m speed but weeks later could be 6-8 x 1000m stacked with 4-5 x 200m fast and with recovery intervals going from 90 seconds easy to 60 seconds steady. I know many on here disagree....but hammering intervals faster than 5K pace only takes you so far especially as a lower mileage runner. More endurance and stamina improves race times from 2 mile to marathon. Until your base becomes more robust....your progress will be limited. 30 miles a week is still a low mileage runner in my eyes. When I take a 20 mile per week runner and turn them into a 40-50 mile per week runner with a steady progression.....they all get faster and year to year. You have to have a vision of where you want to be 2-3 years from now vs 3-6 months from now. You can't keep improving by trying to manipulate speed work ratios. Doesn't work this way.
I'm sure it's true 30 miles is low mileage compared to 40 to 60 or 100. But it's double what I was running 3 years ago and I should see improvements with that. I have - but not as much as I would expect. In adding miles, I reduced my speed work, basically switched from doing a lot of faster runs to just a lot of easy runs and the CV workout.
Ultimately the question isn't how I can become the best possible runner. If I had time or interest to run 100 miles a week and stop lifting weights and give up 20 pounds of muscle I'm sure I'd be faster. Really I'm asking, given 30 miles a week of running, and my desire to keep lifting some weights and not lose overall body weight, what's the best 1 mile to 5k runner I can be?
I'm basing the CV pace on the Run Fast Calculator I found in this forum, it says for a 7:05 pace (my PB 5k) to 7:14 (recent 5k) my CV intervals should be 7:21-7:30 pace. Since my 5k is 22 min of continuous running at 7:05, it doesn't surprise me that 4 x 4'30" of running at 7:21-7:30 would feel easy, especially given the 75 seconds of rest in between. In contrast the typical 5k progression workout I see online starts at around 3 intervals of 3-4 minutes at 5k pace or perceived effort, with 3 min of rest, and works up to 5 x 5 min at 5k effort, which is harder: first, it's farther; second, it's faster; third, there's 5 instead of 4 repeats.
What am I not understanding?
Anyway I'm ok continuing the CV workouts, I just think I need something at my 5k pace. I'm not stopping the CV, I'm just adding a second workout
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