Forums >General Running>New member, 100mi Ultra training advice needed (or tell me I'm crazy and why!)
Hi,
So, I've never been much of a runner, but ever since my uncle packed an aid station into the Rockies on horse-back for a 100 mi ultra...I couldn't get the idea of crossing 100 miles of mountain terrain out of my head.
Background: I joined the US Army at 18 and went straight to the Ranger Regt. and I've graduated Ranger School...I know how to be cold, tired, wet, hungry, no sleep, and carry heavy (70+lb) loads all night cross-country for multiple days.
Now, I'm 43 and in excellent overall condition. Very solid strength and anaerobic conditioning level. I can do 5K under 24min and 5 mi under 45 min. Not stellar...but I almost never run. Longest I've ran is probably 10 miles.
So, I have been researching ultra training programs and my brother in law is in the middle of his own train up for a 50 mi in Feb.
Here's my goal (if possible?) I'd like to keep my strength and muscle-mass, not get injured, and complete the distance. I'm not a yoked bodybuilder by any means, but I don't want to lose what I have (5'10, 175lbs when I'm at 10% body fat).
My initial approach is, use HIIT (with kettlebells-whatever) and short sprints, intervals, hills etc. to take care of the cardio aerobic/anaerobic conditioning component replacing all the shorter runs of any program. That leaves the long ones...
For the long runs, programs typically have them 1x per week or 2x long ones back to back each week. The theory: what if I keep the longest runs and 2x runs of a typical train up...but do them every other week instead? This would cut the overall mileage in half (reducing injury, keeping strength and muscle) while still exposing myself to the time on my feet and distances. At a hair under 2 weeks between long runs, plenty of recovery. But, is it too long? Would I start to lose some of the positive adaptation by only doing long runs every other week?
I'm thick skinned, tell me how much this approach sucks and will fail (if that's the case) just tell my why and what to change! Thanks
Old , Ugly and slow
i think it would be a mistake to not run at least 3 days a week.
doing 2 short runs should not cause you to lose muscle if you eat enough.
How long do you have to train?
once you build up to several hours of running and walking then every other week is fine.
If you don"t run then you must not like to run . If this is true then why send a year or more training to do something
you don't enjoy.
I am sure you could given you backgrond
first race sept 1977 last race sept 2007
2019 goals 1000 miles , 190 pounds , deadlift 400 touch my toes
I appreciate the feedback. The race I'm considering is the "Mountain Lakes 100" in my home state of Oregon, so not a big travel/logistics/cost issue and it doesn't seem too extreme in difficulty terrain and elevation wise (other than the distance). It is Sep 22-23, so I have a decent amount of time to train. The why is it is just a bucket-list type of challenge that I keep coming back to. We have a family tradition of hiking 30+ miles every black friday so I'm on my feet for about 12 hrs straight each year already.
I don't dislike running, but prefer short high-intensity anaerobic workouts or strength training (mostly body-weight). I'm testing the waters to see if the juice is worth the squeeze. I'm willing to put in the work, but not if I get injured, get joint issues, or lose all my strength. Basically maintaining strength and muscle (or losing a little each) is OK.
3 runs per week makes sense and also building up to multiple hours then trying to taper to every other week. I was at one time a personal trainer so I have a decent amount of exercise and nutritional knowledge...endurance running is outside of my experience though.
Slower but happier
You might like Mark Cissons “Primal Endurance” or Kelly Starrets running books. They are more into a strength maintenance approach. As far as helping 100 mile preperation...My best advice is do a 50 mile or 100k prior. It not absolutely a prerequisite but helped me work out a lot of non endurance related issues ( like nutrition/gear) which could end your race no matter what shape you are in.
edit: just to actually address your questions: i dont think you need long runs every week (if you mean by that 20 mile or greater or back to back ). I woyld have something at least 2-3 hours/?12-18 miles after you have youre base. Time on your feet is the key. There are a decent number of ultrarunners who dont do massive b2b long runs. I would use 50-100k races in your build up like i said above. There is just a lot of little things that go wrong and working through those is what a 100 mile is really about.
I dont understand repkacing the short runs with HIIT or anaerobic work. Short runs in a running plan are not workouts but generally for recovery. Replacing them w other things like crosstraining works but this is at easy effort cross training like biking swimming. If you do that make sure you are not changing recovery runs to workouts. I honesly do not know how strength training would impact recovery. I would just not do any leg stuff on recovery days.
I think of a running plan consisting of workouts (interval, Vo2max, tempo, etc) 1-2 per week, and general aerobic and recovery running for the rest. For a “just finish 100 mile goal”, general aerobic and recovery are your most important in my opinion.
Be careful though, you may just find you love ultras and never look back, crazier things have happened.
2020 goal: couch to 5K, currently working on the couch block
Your plan doesn't reduce injury risk. Injury usually comes from too much, too soon, not from higher mileage in and of itself. Higher mileage that comes from a safe buildup over time is much less of an injury risk than back-to-back weekend long runs without the mileage to support it.
I think this plan also puts you at risk of not being fast enough to finish in 30 hours or having other difficulties that prevent a finish.
Thank you Trai Hound, great feedback I appreciate it. I have also bailed on the idea of doing it this year. I realize I'm way underestimating what it will take and I'm not willing to do that to myself and family is a compressed time frame. I'm going to take this year to build up my base (without conflicting with my strength goals) and learn more both academically and physically about myself.
Today on a moderate 5mi, I learned my form is pretty good...but my strides per minute is way low at 158. I'll check out the Mark Cisson book.
I just read an excellent ebook on marathon prep "16 Weeks To A Faster Marathon" by Runnersconnect. Filled in some knowledge gaps and explained how I was able to go 26 miles hiking in a fasted state w/o hitting a wall or crashing, but if I'd have been running, would have crashed and burned.
After reading that book, I get what you are saying about the recovery runs. However, I see a lot of them at 4-6 miles. What is the minimum amount you need to run for active recovery of the muscles? Would 2 miles do it?
From a physiological standpoint, why couldn't you reduce recovery runs to the bare minimum to get the recovery effect. And replace any speed work/hills with HIIT? Keeping the temo runs, threshold runs, and long runs of a program.
Your plan doesn't reduce injury risk. Injury usually comes from too much, too soon, not from higher mileage in and of itself. Higher mileage that comes from a safe buildup over time is much less of an injury risk than back-to-back weekend long runs without the mileage to support it. I think this plan also puts you at risk of not being fast enough to finish in 30 hours or having other difficulties that prevent a finish.
Thanks. Too much too soon is my biggest risk which is why I decided to take it slow and not enter that race this year. My anaerobic/aerobic capacity far outstrips my structural capacity for sure.
What weekly mileage should I start with? I can do multiple sets of 40rep body weight squats, single leg "pistols" etc. and a 5 mile run/recovery is no issue...I just don't run much more than 3mi a week or even every other week...or less.
Not sure the minimum miles on a recovery run. The idea was being active for recovery works better than rest but not heard a minimum on it. Rest is certainly. I almost always do that 1 day per week.
I agree you could drop a traditional speedwork and do some other workout like HITT. I think either plays a relatively minor role but n a 100 mile race with a just finish goal. I think I misunderstood and thought you were talking about dropping the short recovery or aerobic runs for high intensity workouts.
it sounds like you might be good at the short sky races where they blast up the side of a mountain and down with ton of elevation per mile. High intensity effotrs needing strength/agility.
Consistently Slow
http://www.ultraladies.com/free-training-plans.html Here's a link to a quick TRAINING SCHEDULE GENERATOR that is based on the Ultra Ladies training plans.Just enter your race date and distance, and we do the math!
Run until the trail runs out.
SCHEDULE 2016--
The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff
http://bkclay.blogspot.com/
Not sure the minimum miles on a recovery run. The idea was being active for recovery works better than rest but not heard a minimum on it. Rest is certainly. I almost always do that 1 day per week. I agree you could drop a traditional speedwork and do some other workout like HITT. I think either plays a relatively minor role but n a 100 mile race with a just finish goal. I think I misunderstood and thought you were talking about dropping the short recovery or aerobic runs for high intensity workouts.
Nah, you didn't misunderstand. The OP was the initial musings of someone with no endurance training experience (but a lot of general fitness knowledge).
Between posting the OP and now, I've read that 136 pg marathon training book so it filled in a lot of gaps. Recovery runs are definitely in now, I understand the benefit of active recovery and have been incorporating that for many years.
Regarding the length, I understand a "runner" loves running and wants to log the miles. I also understand a competitor wants to suck the marrow out of any proven training plan to get every bit of benefit.
Me, if on the active recovery run days, I can get say all of (or 90% of) the benefit of a 6 mile recovery run by only running 2 miles, I'll do that and spend more time with the family.
Similar to my thoughts on the long runs (and long doubles). What if I did those every other week instead of every week? Yes, progress would be slower, but I can just plan for a longer train up. It would give me plenty of recovery. The result would be an upward waving program instead of the more standard 1-3 week mileage increase, week 4 back off, repeat.
So, an example: (assuming I have safely built up to the volume of the first long week):
Week 1 (has long run) 20mpw. Week 2 12 mpw (recovery, tempo, threshold runs only), week 3 (has long run again) 22mpw, week 4 14mpw, week 5 25mpw etc.
The long weeks increase by the standard 10% or so, built in back off weeks each week after.
Awesome, thanks!
Rick
Glad I waited to post. Good call on postponing. It could have been done but you will have a better chance of success and a better experience with a longer build up.
Can't offer much on training plans. I have never been able to follow them, but one thing for sure, you need a lot of miles. A mix of run, walk, hike, scramble, crawl, whatever it takes. Time on feet (which you have a good start). Then you have to experiment with hydration, nutrition, gear, on and on. It is a fun addicting process however.
Another recommendation that you progress through the distances. Half marathon, marathon, 50k, 50 mile, 100k. They don't have to be races. I skipped a few distances in my build up and regret it now.
Get involved in your local races. Volunteer, pace, crew. It is very educational for your own Ultra goals.
Long runs - everyone has a different definition on the distance but I have found a 4 week cycle works for me. Build, build, big week, recovery. With the occasional spur of the moment long outing thrown in there.
Suggest you join the Ultra user group and take a look at the threads going on there.
12-22 Last One Standing - dnf 37 miles
1-23 Sun Marathon - 3:53
3-4-23 Red Mountain 55k - 7:02
4-15-23 Zion 100 - 27:59
Me, if on the active recovery run days, I can get say all of (or 90% of) the benefit of a 6 mile recovery run by only running 2 miles, I'll do that and spend more time with the family. Similar to my thoughts on the long runs (and long doubles). What if I did those every other week instead of every week? Yes, progress would be slower, but I can just plan for a longer train up. It would give me plenty of recovery. The result would be an upward waving program instead of the more standard 1-3 week mileage increase, week 4 back off, repeat. So, an example: (assuming I have safely built up to the volume of the first long week): Week 1 (has long run) 20mpw. Week 2 12 mpw (recovery, tempo, threshold runs only), week 3 (has long run again) 22mpw, week 4 14mpw, week 5 25mpw etc. The long weeks increase by the standard 10% or so, built in back off weeks each week after.
The potential problem with this mode of thinking is this: The body produces physiological adaptations based on training load AND duration. The adaptations you are looking for include things like mitochondrial density, more capillaries, greater aerobic capacity... etc.
It's common to think 'If I go out and run 20 miles I'll improve". That's fine, except that your body requires a lot of 'convincing' that it needs to build out new energy production pathways. That comes from some level of 'sustained' training load. That's why most training programs are at least 4 days a week (there are some 3 day a week plans, but those include a heavy focus on x-training). The reason a 2 day recovery run isn't anywhere near the same as a 6 mile recovery run is the idea of sustaining a training load. 2 miles will only warm you up. It won't also tell your body "Hey, dude... I'm gonna go easy on ya right now but you still need to understand I mean business. Keep making those changes for me, m'kay?"
Too much recovery is actually a negative stimulation from your body's perspective. It will interpret that as 'Okay, I can stop these adaptations now."
One of the more interesting things to me about physiological adaptation is that they are transient. I can train hard over a long period of time and my body will maximize capillaries and mitochondria and lung capacity, etc... Once a quit, the body actually begins to reverse everything. Capillaries that are no longer needed disappear. Mitochondria density reduces. Aerobic capacity diminishes.
We don't get to keep our gains unless we continue to apply the necessary training load. When you look at it this way, I hope it makes more sense why it's generally not a good idea to approach any athletic goal (particularly endurance-related ones) from the standpoint of minimizing the training. The body is always evaluating the pattern of stress and adapting only when necessary.
be curious; not judgmental
Glad I waited to post. Good call on postponing. It could have been done but you will have a better chance of success and a better experience with a longer build up. Can't offer much on training plans. I have never been able to follow them, but one thing for sure, you need a lot of miles. A mix of run, walk, hike, scramble, crawl, whatever it takes. Time on feet (which you have a good start). Then you have to experiment with hydration, nutrition, gear, on and on. It is a fun addicting process however. Another recommendation that you progress through the distances. Half marathon, marathon, 50k, 50 mile, 100k. They don't have to be races. I skipped a few distances in my build up and regret it now. Get involved in your local races. Volunteer, pace, crew. It is very educational for your own Ultra goals. Long runs - everyone has a different definition on the distance but I have found a 4 week cycle works for me. Build, build, big week, recovery. With the occasional spur of the moment long outing thrown in there. Suggest you join the Ultra user group and take a look at the threads going on there.
Thanks! Yeah, I feel good about the decision to do it in 2019. Gives me plenty of time to ease into it, build up a mileage base and learn. I'll probably volunteer to help crew the race this year, that's a great idea! (and good excuse for a family camping trip).
I planned on hitting all the distances up to 50 mile for sure, I'll probably do a 100k as well (there are lots of them in the PAC NW). There is a 25k trail run in February y brother in law is already running I think I'm going to start with so that will check the half-marathon box. I ran 10 3/4 miles on a trail the other day, it has to be the the farthest I've ever run in my life, no drama, no issues other than a couple days of calf, hamstring and minor PCL soreness (totally gone within a day of noticing it).