Lifting (Read 184 times)

snake84


    Recently Alrair5 posting in my New Guy thread and I thought it would be best to start another thread on weight lifting. Yes I did see you have an old one on lifting but felt it was best to start my own. So here is a good start for most of you. You can scale it up as needed.

     

    Monday:

    Barbell Bench 4 sets, 10 reps

    Or

    Pushups 4 sets of what ever you can get

    Dumbbell over head press: 3 set of 10 reps

     

    Wednesday:

    Lower cable rows if you have access to that machine

    or

    Bent over row with the bar if you don’t: 3 sets of 10 reps.

    Lat pull down if you have the machine

    or

    Wide grip pull ups: 3 sets of what ever you can do

    Dumbbell bicep curls: 3 sets of 10 reps.

     

    Friday:

    Squats: 4 sets of 10 reps.

    Standing calve: 3 sets of 20 reps

     

    Yes this is simple but if you have little to no experience with lifting, you will tone up nicely. It’s one body part a week and if someone tells you that you need more then that; tell them they are either not putting in 100% of an effort or they are overtraining. Time wise, you should be done in 20 min. Longer then that and you need to stay off your FaceBook during training.

     

    Friday is optional for most runners and I’m telling you right out, serious squatting will probably hurt your training and possibility invite injury so that’s up to you.

     

    I tried to include some basic movements for those who have little gym equipment. No bench to press on? Do pushups. Can’t do a real good pushup? Do them on your knees. Don’t have a bar? Use Dumbbells for the movement.

     

    What to expect from this: give it time… a lot of time. Hell a couch to 3k is a 3-4 month process so look at it in the same light. Start now and I bet by the time the shirts come off in summer you’ll be looking better then last year. (Shirts off is optional for the woman).

     

    I have one saying on my gym wall, and only one saying: “If it’s important to you, you will find a way. If it is not, you will find an excuse.

     

    Anyone that needs any specific advice on weight training or diet, hit me up.

    mattw4jc


      Good stuff, snake. How about some intermediate advice?

       

      I'm not a beginner and am comfortable with the free weights at my gym. About 2 years ago I attempted to get more serious and try to bulk up a bit. However, I was still running and biking a lot and not taking in enough protein. I did experience some gains, but pretty minor. I'm not so much looking to get huge, but would like to be able to bench and squat more than my body weight. I weigh about 148, maybe 5 lbs less when I'm in marathon training mode.

       

      I used a 5x5 program for a while and that helped, but I definitely plateaued. Right now I go to the gym 3, maybe 4 times a week for about 50mins - 1 hr each time. I'll do chest & shoulders one day, back & biceps another, and legs on the third. If I make it a fourth time I'll either do some core/abs or else start the rotation over but maybe mixing up what exercises I do (incline dumbbell press vs flat barbell, for example).

       

      What else do you want to know?

      snake84


        Good stuff, snake. How about some intermediate advice?

         

        I'm not a beginner and am comfortable with the free weights at my gym. About 2 years ago I attempted to get more serious and try to bulk up a bit. However, I was still running and biking a lot and not taking in enough protein. I did experience some gains, but pretty minor. I'm not so much looking to get huge, but would like to be able to bench and squat more than my body weight. I weigh about 148, maybe 5 lbs less when I'm in marathon training mode.

         

        I used a 5x5 program for a while and that helped, but I definitely plateaued. Right now I go to the gym 3, maybe 4 times a week for about 50mins - 1 hr each time. I'll do chest & shoulders one day, back & biceps another, and legs on the third. If I make it a fourth time I'll either do some core/abs or else start the rotation over but maybe mixing up what exercises I do (incline dumbbell press vs flat barbell, for example).

         

        What else do you want to know?

         

        Well you're not far off of what I said with how you have your body parts broken out. You are giving your body the best rest the way you are doing it. Sounds like you have a good basic idea on how things work for you and it's time to up the ante.

         

        Could you show me what exercises, sets and reps you are doing and I can adjust that. My guess is you're real close and just need to tweak a few things. Oh, and tell me the days you are doing what. M/W/F or T/T/S

         

        What was and or is your protein intake? Good if you know but if it's a guess, just say its a guess. And don't worry about "Getting too big" I have tried to get too big all my life and it never happened. lol

        mattw4jc


          Schedule varies some. If I do 4 days it is Mon (early a.m.), Tue (p.m.), Wed (p.m.) and Sat (lunch). One of Mon, Tue, Wed are the days likely to be skipped depending on other things going on. Not all of these are done every visit. Like I mentioned I'll do different exercises.

          Chest / Shoulder / Triceps (forgot to put tris)
          Bench Press 5x5 (~150/155 lbs)
          Overhead Press (barbell) 3x8 or 5x5 (~95/100)
          Skullcrushers 3x8/10 (~45)
          Lateral or front dumbbell raise 3x8/10 (20)
          Dips 3x8
          Other: Pushups, Incline bench, dumbbell press 3x8

          Back / Biceps
          Deadlift 3x5 (usually work up: 155, 175, 185)
          Bent over row 5x5 (100)
          Seated row machine 3x8
          Lat pulldown 3x8
          Barbell curl 3x8 (70)
          Dumbbell curl 3x8 (30/35)
          Other: Concentration curl, hammer curl, incline curl, pull-ups 3x8

          Legs
          Squat 5x5 (~135)
          Leg Extension machine 3x8 (100)
          Standing Calf Raise 3x8 (holding 60lb dumbbell)
          Walking lunges 3x24 (holding two 25lb plates)
          Other: side lunges, body weight squat w/high reps maybe holding a 25lb plate

           

          I stink at squats, so lately I've been favoring the body weight or just holding a plate variety and doing high reps (50ish with no weight; 20+ with plate). I was up to about 155lbs with the bar, but struggled even doing 5 reps. During my last marathon training cycle I dropped back down to keep these from taxing me too much.

           

          As for protein, I have not been measuring my intake at all lately. I'd say whatever the average diet includes would be what I'm getting. I don't use any powders or anything.

          snake84


            Schedule varies some. If I do 4 days it is Mon (early a.m.), Tue (p.m.), Wed (p.m.) and Sat (lunch). One of Mon, Tue, Wed are the days likely to be skipped depending on other things going on. Not all of these are done every visit. Like I mentioned I'll do different exercises.

            Chest / Shoulder / Triceps (forgot to put tris)
            Bench Press 5x5 (~150/155 lbs)
            Overhead Press (barbell) 3x8 or 5x5 (~95/100)
            Skullcrushers 3x8/10 (~45)
            Lateral or front dumbbell raise 3x8/10 (20)
            Dips 3x8
            Other: Pushups, Incline bench, dumbbell press 3x8

            Back / Biceps
            Deadlift 3x5 (usually work up: 155, 175, 185)
            Bent over row 5x5 (100)
            Seated row machine 3x8
            Lat pulldown 3x8
            Barbell curl 3x8 (70)
            Dumbbell curl 3x8 (30/35)
            Other: Concentration curl, hammer curl, incline curl, pull-ups 3x8

            Legs
            Squat 5x5 (~135)
            Leg Extension machine 3x8 (100)
            Standing Calf Raise 3x8 (holding 60lb dumbbell)
            Walking lunges 3x24 (holding two 25lb plates)
            Other: side lunges, body weight squat w/high reps maybe holding a 25lb plate

             

            I stink at squats, so lately I've been favoring the body weight or just holding a plate variety and doing high reps (50ish with no weight; 20+ with plate). I was up to about 155lbs with the bar, but struggled even doing 5 reps. During my last marathon training cycle I dropped back down to keep these from taxing me too much.

             

            As for protein, I have not been measuring my intake at all lately. I'd say whatever the average diet includes would be what I'm getting. I don't use any powders or anything.

             

             

             

            That is far from an intermediate workout program! Let me take a few shots at a few things. My guess is you're taking little time between sets; maybe a minute. On the "Big 3" lifts; Squats, Bench and Dead lifts, take more time between sets. More rest=more weight=more muscle. On the other lifts, you can go quick but those are your compound movements and therefor your mass builders.

             

            I know this sounds contrary to normal thinking but I'd drop either the skull crushers or dips. The amount of  tricep work you're getting from bench and OHP's would be plenty. I'd rather see you put the time into a longer rest during bench. The same can be said for dumbbell and barbell curls. I'd take the DB's over the bar because you can supinate your hands; bringing in a a motion of the bicep left out from using a bar.

             

            I'm shocked to see you're Dead Lifting.... good for you! There is little that can build mass like DL's. The one thing I will caution you on is do not do them the day before or after Squats. The movement is so close that the probability of injury is great. Let's not forget you need your wheels and back to run! I would try to give yourself a day between all of your training days in the gym. MWF is great. You have to be thinking I'm crazy for saying "Do Less", but trust me, less will be more.

             

            Protein; this is a hot topic in my world. Here's what I truly believe, one gram of protein per pound of LEAN body weight. Most runners are lean by nature so you can go with just your current weight. Some power lifters shoot for 2g/lb and to me, all you're doing is over working the kidneys and adding to a caloric surplus.

             

            Now one last thing and I ask this will all due respect. Are you truly putting forth an all out effort on the last set of each exercise? Only you can answer that and you don't own an answer to me.

             

            Hope I helped you but if you need anything else, hit me up.

            curlydan


              I listened to a podcast by two successful coaches (working at the collegiate and low to mid post collegiate level) that changed my perspective on lifting for runners. They use weight lifting to stimulate the nervous system and to elicit an endocrine response in their runners and see strength improvements as secondary. They also recommended weight lifting after intense or taxing running workouts to teach the body to better use these muscles when they are already fatigued and to elicit an increase in testosterone and HGH production. They recommend low numbers of sets, 4-8 reps at 80-85% of 1 rep max.

              For the past few weeks I have been following a very simple lifting program (DB bench press, pull-ups, goblet squat, KG swing, step-ups) 2x/week exclusively after interval workouts. With just a handful of sessions to draw experience from, I have felt less sore and fatigued the days following this kind of lifting routine. When I was lifting weights in college to supplement my running I was trying to hit my maximum weights every session but in retrospect I think I was probably exhausting myself.

              Anyway, I hope this is helpful for someone. Please feel free to follow up or message me directly with questions.

              mattw4jc


                That is far from an intermediate workout program! Let me take a few shots at a few things. My guess is you're taking little time between sets; maybe a minute. On the "Big 3" lifts; Squats, Bench and Dead lifts, take more time between sets. More rest=more weight=more muscle. On the other lifts, you can go quick but those are your compound movements and therefor your mass builders.

                 

                I know this sounds contrary to normal thinking but I'd drop either the skull crushers or dips. The amount of  tricep work you're getting from bench and OHP's would be plenty. I'd rather see you put the time into a longer rest during bench. The same can be said for dumbbell and barbell curls. I'd take the DB's over the bar because you can supinate your hands; bringing in a a motion of the bicep left out from using a bar.

                 

                I'm shocked to see you're Dead Lifting.... good for you! There is little that can build mass like DL's. The one thing I will caution you on is do not do them the day before or after Squats. The movement is so close that the probability of injury is great. Let's not forget you need your wheels and back to run! I would try to give yourself a day between all of your training days in the gym. MWF is great. You have to be thinking I'm crazy for saying "Do Less", but trust me, less will be more.

                 

                Protein; this is a hot topic in my world. Here's what I truly believe, one gram of protein per pound of LEAN body weight. Most runners are lean by nature so you can go with just your current weight. Some power lifters shoot for 2g/lb and to me, all you're doing is over working the kidneys and adding to a caloric surplus.

                 

                Now one last thing and I ask this will all due respect. Are you truly putting forth an all out effort on the last set of each exercise? Only you can answer that and you don't own an answer to me.

                 

                Hope I helped you but if you need anything else, hit me up.

                Good stuff. Thanks for the feedback. I do get the less is more concept. I'll also admit that I'm not good at putting it into practice. Between bench sets I usually do the lateral raises. Between deadlifts I may do the bicep curls. So, not really resting at all. See, I am an intermediate!

                 

                I'm up for cutting out some of the minor lifts in exchange for more rest between sets. Can't hurt to try it at least. I'll also see about getting more protein. Sometimes I do put an all out effort on the last set. I generally don't have a spot, so I am a bit conservative. But one time on the bench I wasn't getting it back up and nobody was around. I don't use collars so I tilted one side down and off the plates went!

                mattw4jc


                  Sorry, one more question - how long should the rest between sets be?

                   

                  I always feel awkward just sitting or standing. Should I take a book and read a couple of pages between?

                  snake84


                    Mattw4jc,

                    I also lift alone. Fear is a great motivator, isn't it? When I squat, it's in a rack so I just dump it if something goes south. That's almost never. For bench, I know my limits but that doesn't account for on catastrophic injury I had. Was going for a bench with something I handled easy the week before for 5. Wanted 6 and got 2. On the 3rd one I completely ruptured my pectoral tendon. Weight came down and I had to dump it in the same fashion you did. Torn pec and some brushed ribs, this required surgery. So yes, I know your fear.

                     

                    No more exercises between exercises! Yeah, I thought you were moving fast but not that fast. As for rest time, try a minute and 2 min on the last set. Cutting out some lifts will help on the time and you will get stronger... trust me!

                    paul2432


                      I listened to a podcast by two successful coaches (working at the collegiate and low to mid post collegiate level) that changed my perspective on lifting for runners. 

                       

                      Who are the coaches?  Do you have a link to the podcasts?

                      Marky_Mark_17


                        Sorry snake84 but I don't agree with what you've suggested as a beginner weightlifting program for runners.

                         

                        If runners are only including two weights sessions a week, there should be one focusing on the large upper body muscles (chest, back, shoulders) and one focusing on the lower body (squats, hamstrings, calves).  An optional third one might include smaller upper body muscles (e.g. biceps, triceps) but these are more or less cosmetic and pretty useless for runners (big arms won't help you run faster).

                         

                        You are focusing on muscle mass building; actually that's not going to benefit many runners as they are more likely to want the strength (and plyometric) gains but not the mass.  10 reps is too much as that's into the mass building zone.  8 reps (probably more like 6) is probably the max for strength training for runners, focusing on quality technique.  If you do 3x20 calf raises, that's way too much.

                         

                        Suggesting that "serious squatting will probably hurt your training and possibility invite injury so that’s up to you" is wrong.  If you have solid technique, then body weight squats (or even weighted) are extremely beneficial for running.  I'd also include something targeting the hamstrings (could be deadlifts or could be hamstring curls), calf raises, and probably lunges.

                        5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

                        HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                        * Net downhill course

                        Last race: McKinnon Shield #1 3000m, 9:07.7 (PB) (Nov-21)

                        Up next: Run Orewa 10km, 16 Jan

                        "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                        curlydan


                           

                          Who are the coaches?  Do you have a link to the podcasts?

                           

                          The coaches are Steve Magness and John Marcus, and below is a link to the podcasts online. Episode 3 was the one I listened to, and I have now listened to the first 23 episodes and really enjoyed them.

                          http://feeds.feedburner.com/scienceofrunning/MMpodcast

                          snake84


                            Sorry snake84 but I don't agree with what you've suggested as a beginner weightlifting program for runners.

                             

                            If runners are only including two weights sessions a week, there should be one focusing on the large upper body muscles (chest, back, shoulders) and one focusing on the lower body (squats, hamstrings, calves).  An optional third one might include smaller upper body muscles (e.g. biceps, triceps) but these are more or less cosmetic and pretty useless for runners (big arms won't help you run faster).

                             

                            You are focusing on muscle mass building; actually that's not going to benefit many runners as they are more likely to want the strength (and plyometric) gains but not the mass.  10 reps is too much as that's into the mass building zone.  8 reps (probably more like 6) is probably the max for strength training for runners, focusing on quality technique.  If you do 3x20 calf raises, that's way too much.

                             

                            Suggesting that "serious squatting will probably hurt your training and possibility invite injury so that’s up to you" is wrong.  If you have solid technique, then body weight squats (or even weighted) are extremely beneficial for running.  I'd also include something targeting the hamstrings (could be deadlifts or could be hamstring curls), calf raises, and probably lunges.

                             

                            You can disagree, it's your internet right to do so. I would ask though that you show me a program structure that you feel is better. I also never said weight training would improve your distance running. I was just offering up a way to look a little better on your next Bahama vacation.

                             

                            You mentioned strength over mass. There is something very well know among the weight lifting community that for some reason has not filtered down to the general athlete; muscle mass and strength go hand in hand. Strength/power training involves a greater demand from the central nervous system (CNS) and an increase in the motor unit recruitment. Hypertrophy is more about the repair of mico trauma to the muscle tissue. But make no mistake, one can not exist without a considerable amount of the other.  Just take my word for it or I could spend a lot of time discussing and giving examples of why this is so.

                             

                            I'm not sure where in my post I said or implied quality technique was not important. As an avid lifter, this is something I have always worked on, as do most athletes.

                             

                            As for "serious squatting will probably hurt your training and possibility invite injury so that’s up to you"  I'm 100% right on this. I originally said probably but that was to soften up those who have a problem with absolutes. Here is a common saying among my Power Lifting comrades, " Power lifting is one of the only sports that has a 100% serious injury rate at the elite level". Those injuries that are being referred to are not repetitive motion injuries such as tendonitis, bursitis or even a Grade 2 muscle strain; they are the ones that require months of rehab and most of the time surgery.

                             

                            I guess I will need to also define what is an Elite squat is. Based off of RPS Federation, you could expect a Raw squat from an Elite lifter, male in the open division to be something like this:

                             

                            Weight class: Single max.

                            148: 425

                            165: 500

                            198: 550

                            220= 600

                              Thank you Snake for providing a guideline for a simplified weightlifting program. I will study it some and try to find time to implement it, note that I am not good at following a program even in running. I usually read up on something and then invent my own way. Probably I would have done better to follow experienced guidance than learn from my mistakes, but I guess I'm hard headed. Interesting that many posters have disagreed with your program, but you do seem to have the knowledge. I do have weights and there is a park about a half mile away that has an exercise course with bars for pull ups, I guess a "wide grip pull up" means you have hands at greater width than shoulders. Anyway, I did try some bench presses today. I weighed the barbell on my scale with the weighs on it and it was 85 pounds. Now, I used to work up to where I could bench the weight 12 times, but I must have lost much of my strength since I was only able to lift it 3 times before it became too much. I guess I should remove some of the weight to start with and work up to heavier lifts.

                              "My dear, here we must run as fast as we can, just to stay in place. And if you wish to go anywhere you must run twice as fast as that.” 

                              snake84


                                Thank you Snake for providing a guideline for a simplified weightlifting program. I will study it some and try to find time to implement it, note that I am not good at following a program even in running. I usually read up on something and then invent my own way. Probably I would have done better to follow experienced guidance than learn from my mistakes, but I guess I'm hard headed. Interesting that many posters have disagreed with your program, but you do seem to have the knowledge. I do have weights and there is a park about a half mile away that has an exercise course with bars for pull ups, I guess a "wide grip pull up" means you have hands at greater width than shoulders. Anyway, I did try some bench presses today. I weighed the barbell on my scale with the weighs on it and it was 85 pounds. Now, I used to work up to where I could bench the weight 12 times, but I must have lost much of my strength since I was only able to lift it 3 times before it became too much. I guess I should remove some of the weight to start with and work up to heavier lifts.

                                 

                                Good for you!

                                 

                                Hey I remember a few years ago after a 5 month layoff from running 4 miles a clip, I was going to get back into it. I got about 1/2 mile in on my first run and knew I was in trouble.  So I know how you feel. Yeah, strip about 30 lbs off that bar and you'll be about where you need to be. You also need some time for your body to get acclimated to the movement.There's nothing wrong with with learning from your mistakes; nothing at all. Your mistakes will make your success all that much sweeter.

                                 

                                Those pull ups are with your palms facing away from you and wide being outside the shoulders.

                                 

                                With regards to members that disagree, it's okay. I differ on some small points among my lifting peers but not on the basics. At no point did I say this is what you should be doing. Just that if you want to do it, this is a basic program of how to do it. I get some serious pushback from guys who weight lift about doing any cardio and forget about any running. They real men fess up and just say, "Fuuk that, I'm not doing it" and do not look for reasons to not do it. I go back to the only saying on my gym wall, "If it’s important to you, you will find a way. If it is not, you will find an excuse".