Forums >Racing>No BQ - try again?
hairshirt knitter
Hey folks, I had a bold plan for the year which involved training hard for a summer half-iron triathlon, followed by 7 weeks intense marathon training with an aim of running a BQ last weekend. It didn't quite work.
The triathlon worked out well enough (sub-5 hours), but I didn't take time off after and jumped straight into the last 7 weeks of Hansons. I reckoned that I had plenty of endurance, so the concentration on race pace running seemed a good fit. I felt fairly wiped for most of those 7 weeks though, and was working hard to hold 4:45/km pace in training. My last standalone marathon was a trail race which I ran in 3:24, my half-marathon at the end of the tri this summer was 1:37. I've also run 1:33 half this year on a tough course and a 19:30 5k. I think I *could* run sub-3:20, all things being well.
Sunday past was the last local opportunity to race a BQ before registration opens for 2015, which was why I picked that race. It was a warm day and not an easy course. I ran through half in 1:39 and 30km in 2:25, was feeling ok and roughly on pace for a sub-3:25 until 37km when the wheels suddenly came off. The last 5km was a nightmare and I struggled in, in 3:33 - I even had to walk a bit around 40km. I'm sure I felt the lack of long runs in the Hanson's method, and my general weekly mileage is probably barely enough.
The question is: should I sign up for a Fall marathon and try to BQ for 2016 capitalizing on the marathon training so far? It only gives me another 7/8 week training block. Is my running going to improve in that time, enough to chop 10 minutes off, because if not, maybe I should sign up for a half and try for a personal best instead? My legs seems to have recovered quite well this week.
If I sign up for another, how would you recommend that I structure the next 7 weeks?
Personally, I wouldn't. However, I am a little confused by your post - what is your actual BQ time, or better yet, what are you shooting for (ie, BQ -5?) There is no 3:20 qualifying time, yet you referenced that as the time you felt you "could run". I apologize if it is obvious from your post, but I can be a little slow at times.
Back to your question, I just don't feel you have enough time to both recover, and gain any significant fitness in just a 7-8 week window. Ideally, you'd want 3-4 weeks just to recover, at which time, you should really be starting to taper for the next marathon. Instead, I'd take the 3-4 weeks to recover, and then establish a good solid base to get you ready for spring. In spring you can then pick a more traditional 18 or so week plan that you feel fits well with where your current fitness level is at.
I'm guessing here, but I assume the BQ would also be a PR? Historically, I just don't see to many people that have at least 5 or so marathons that PR, on some type of abbreviated schedule. That's also what makes it difficult to try and train for two events so close together like you did.
The only thing that may change this is how truly warm it was that day? Are we taking 75+ degrees while running, and just as important, are we talking high humidity/dew point as well? Also, what was the actual race? A really tough course can certainly impact time as well.
Good luck!
Personally I would do it! Taking away recovery/taper you have about a month of quality training in there. If a month didn't matter we'd all start our taper 6 weeks out right??
I bet if you focused on volume and long run during those weeks you would have a good shit at bq on a good day.
Sorry, yes, I didn't make that very clear. BQ for me would be 3:25, but I was aiming at 3:20 allowing for a little drift. All-time previous best is 3:22:30, a new best is long overdue and on a good day, I feel like it wouldn't be too hard. It's always hard to schedule a pure running season in - I'm a jack-of-all-trades triathlete, I've done a bunch of marathons, but not actually that many standalone road ones.
Yes, it was a 75+ degree day and coastal humid. A small local race, so was kind of lonely out there once we lost the 10k and half-marathoners!
Personally, I wouldn't. However, I am a little confused by your post - what is your actual BQ time, or better yet, what are you shooting for (ie, BQ -5?) There is no 3:20 qualifying time, yet you referenced that as the time you felt you "could run". I apologize if it is obvious from your post, but I can be a little slow at times. Back to your question, I just don't feel you have enough time to both recover, and gain any significant fitness in just a 7-8 week window. Ideally, you'd want 3-4 weeks just to recover, at which time, you should really be starting to taper for the next marathon. Instead, I'd take the 3-4 weeks to recover, and then establish a good solid base to get you ready for spring. In spring you can then pick a more traditional 18 or so week plan that you feel fits well with where your current fitness level is at. I'm guessing here, but I assume the BQ would also be a PR? Historically, I just don't see to many people that have at least 5 or so marathons that PR, on some type of abbreviated schedule. That's also what makes it difficult to try and train for two events so close together like you did. The only thing that may change this is how truly warm it was that day? Are we taking 75+ degrees while running, and just as important, are we talking high humidity/dew point as well? Also, what was the actual race? A really tough course can certainly impact time as well. Good luck!
Super Pro Lurker
You really should fix that auto correct. I wonder what else you're typing to cause this to happen twice now...
Old , Ugly and slow
Pick a cold month and you can do it.
first race sept 1977 last race sept 2007
2019 goals 1000 miles , 190 pounds , deadlift 400 touch my toes
So you have run 3:22 before, I would trust your judgement that in a good day you can get a BQ-2 at least. If this would be your first BQ, I would say try it. Cause otherwise, you might have only another attempt in Spring. Getting it done takes away a lot of anxiety.
No more marathons
Can only give personal experience.
Ran a hot weather marathon in August 2012. Was going for a BQ but went out too fast and conditions were lest than ideal - finished in about 4:15. Needed 3:55 or better (wanted sub 3:50 for the BQ-5). Took a couple of easy weeks and then got back into training using Higdon 8 weeks between marathon. 9 weeks after the first marathon I ran 3:47:30 to get my BQ. YMMV.
Boston 2014 - a 33 year journey
Lordy, I hope there are tapes.
He's a leaker!
Consistently Slow
+1
Run until the trail runs out.
SCHEDULE 2016--
The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff
http://bkclay.blogspot.com/
You may be right about giving it a go in cooler weather, although I think I'm used to racing long efforts in the heat, and it doesn't usually bother me. Nutrition and fluids seemed to be ok too. I raced in DS Racers and I was certainly pretty beat up at the end, though I don't know that was a causative factor in the big slow down - might not try it next time though.
I ran an easy 8k today after a recovery week where I've been active, but haven't run, and felt fine. I have a few options for Fall races, the two most likely are the PEI Marathon on October 19, or Moncton, NB a week later. I don't have to sign up until the last minute, so I can see how it goes.
Pfitzinger has a section about training for two marathons close together, so I may roughly follow that advice. He has one 32km run, whereas the longest I've run all year has been 28km (outside the marathon), as per Hansons. I might keep the Hansons tempo runs going, in their plans that's at marathon race pace, and is a good indicator as to how you're doing. So, another lower mileage week this week (~50km), building next week (~65km) including plenty bike time, then 4/5 solid mileage weeks (~75km), and a 10 day taper.
Go for it. If you skip it, you won't BQ. If you race it, you might BQ and you might not - and if you don't you'll just be in the same position as if you'd skipped it -- ready to train for a spring BQ. I am presuming that you've run and raced enough to judge the overtraining / overracing risk and am not factoring that in as there's nothing universally wrong about running two marathons hard at that interval.
I think the tougher question is always whether or not to run those late summer, last chance BQ marathons when the weather and your training are iffy. You can sabotage the rest of the running season that way. I did, last fall, missed BQ by five seconds in early September (but sneaked in on my BQ-2 from the spring) and then missed it again on my second fall marathon, feeling still spent from that September effort.
The second fall marathon is a no-brainer, so long as you have the self-knowledge to pull the plug if you're not ready on the line.