RunningAHEAD - Topic: I need help (actually sympathy) with the same old thing (runner knee)

Old, Slow, Happy

posted: 8/28/2008 at 7:36 AM

I have stupid runners knee. I can't run correctly. My knee feels O.K. when I start but gets worse as I go. I start running more "bouncy" and I lean forward too much. I went for a 12 mile run last night, but only did 7. I know I should rest it, but I can't seem to cut out the running. I've been taking ibuprofen (however you spell it). It seems to help, but not enough. I'm not getting my miles in. I was trying for 3- 200 mile months in a row. I guess I won't make it. I coach high school soccer and can't run on nights when I have a match. I think it helps to have more days off, but again, it's not enough. I've have ordered a pair of Superfeet Green insoles. I'm not sure they'll work. I have very flat feet and am a severe over-pronater. The blue insole are more for low arches, but they don't have any cushion. I'll try anything (expect rest apparently). Maybe I'm just too old to keep this up. I did have surgery on the knee about 15 years ago. They took out a piece of the anterior blah, blah, blah, meniscus due to a bucket handle tear. I've been running about 5 years. It did not bother me until the beginning of this August. Any advice or words of encouragement would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

RunCheffyRun

posted: 8/28/2008 at 8:42 AM

Not Really Much to say, except I sympathize with what your dealing with. Have you tried bracing up the knee? It will support the tendon while you are running, and maybe keep you a little more pain free? Maybe time for some custom Orthotics? Best of Luck, Stay tough. Sad

Life Goal- Stay Cancer Free, Live my Best Life

" Choose Joy, Today and ALWAYS"

Squeaky

Jazz hands!

posted: 8/28/2008 at 10:54 AM

Have you tried doing lots of quad work? I've never had runner's knee, but that's supposed to help. Lots of lunges and leg extensions, and I'm sure Zoomy will be along shortly...

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Maplefly

Hoping to Run Again :-(

posted: 8/28/2008 at 11:00 AM

Oh I'm so sorry. I'm dealing with lower back pain here and not running at all - so I share your frustration. Maybe just a bit of time off to let your knee heal? Take care.

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Only as much as I dream can I be.
veggies on the run

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rectumdamnnearkilledem

posted: 8/28/2008 at 11:04 AM

Yep, quad work can help...though lunges and squats may be a bit much until things are better healed. These are some good isometric exercises: click This stuff is super frustrating, though. The Superfeet insoles have helped me a LOT, but just as soon as I thought I was nearing that light at the end of the tunnel I had a sort of crap-out in my recovery during a 13 miler on Tues. 4 miles in my knee started bothering me (on my 18 miler the previous week my knee bothered me, but not nearly as early in the run). I'm almost starting to wonder if the knee strap I wear on my longest runs is the culprit, since I have done shorter runs without the strap and had no issues, but the longer ones have my knee feeling tender after a few miles. I'm going to stop wearing the strap until my 20 miler on Tues. to see if that helps. If it does, then maybe I will just bring it along on my run and only wear it if necessary. I'd say maybe scale back your mileage a bit, too. Instead of ~50 miles/week, perhaps go down to 35 or so, perhaps with an extra rest day. These knee things are really stubborn and continuing to train hard really gets the recovery nowhere fast. If I weren't training for a marathon I'd probably have taken at least 2 full weeks off to get this shit to heal. Once the race is over I am likely going to see about custom orthotics.

Getting the wind knocked out of you is the only way to

remind your lungs how much they like the taste of air.

~ Sarah Kay

Large Old Runner

Old, Slow, Happy

posted: 8/28/2008 at 2:30 PM

Thanks for all the sympathy and advice. You can be sure that I'll try it all. Has anyone had experience with a Cho Pat dual action knee strap? It looks like a bit much and I'm afraid my knee will begin to depend on it.

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rectumdamnnearkilledem

posted: 8/28/2008 at 2:48 PM

Quote from Large Old Runner on 8/28/2008 at 2:30 PM:

Has anyone had experience with a Cho Pat dual action knee strap? It looks like a bit much and I'm afraid my knee will begin to depend on it.

Yeah, I have one...meh. I think the el-cheapo knee strap I found at Dick's actually works better. The Cho Pat one didn't fit well and kind of pinched near the back/side of my knee...where the top and bottom halves kind of curve together. I ended up with a chafed area. I think one of those neoprene braces with a hole for the kneecap would likely work better.

Getting the wind knocked out of you is the only way to

remind your lungs how much they like the taste of air.

~ Sarah Kay

mamaofthree

Best Present Ever

posted: 8/28/2008 at 3:24 PM

Quote from zoom-zoom on 8/28/2008 at 2:48 PM:

I think one of those neoprene braces with a hole for the kneecap would likely work better.

my colleague, a doc who likes to drop little comments like "when I was running 100 miles per week" and "once, during the olympic marathon trials," thinks those neoprene brace with the hole actual do more harm than good. rather than helping the patella to track properly, they (according to her) squish the patella against the underlying structures. Just one person's second-hand opinion, so take it for what it's worth. Lots of sympathy on the knee issue, though.

Mishka-old log

posted: 8/28/2008 at 3:31 PM

I have knee pain at the bottom edge of my patella, where the patellar tendon meets the patella. Not sure where yours is Big Richard, but I picked up an Ace knee strap for $12.99 at Walgreens 2 weeks ago and it has worked wonders. This is what I picked up:

The knee pain is nearly gone. I wear it most of the time and always when running. I don't find it to be intrusive when I run. Too early to tell if I'm becoming dependent on it, but my thoughts are: get rid of the pain, then strenghten the supporting muscles to prevent its return. I'd be willing to bet that if I took it off and continued to run with the same supporting muscle deficiencies, the pain would return.

Marcus L S

The Greatest of All Time

posted: 8/28/2008 at 4:29 PM
modified: 8/28/2008 at 4:30 PM

Let me throw this in since I have recently dealt with this. If you have true blue patella-femoral pain syndrome (runner's knee), it's caused by the patella not tracking correctly as it moves up the femoral condyle. Unfortunately this can happen for a number of reasons buy typically it's because of a muscle imbalance (either the quad or the hamstring is stronger than the opposing muscle). You could have such a thing. Also being really inflexible in the quads can cause this. What you may want to do is some light strengthening exercises for the lower quads and the hamstrings. Also stretch after each run religiously and then again at some other point during the day. Stretch and strengthen your hip flexors too. If you have to take ibuprofen to run, you're making a mistake. You're masking your body telling you that something is wrong and it's just going to get worse. I ate tons of ibuprofen, had steroid injections, and still ended up having my knee scoped. But I didn't have the warning you have. Mine escalated within 7 days and one morning I woke up and couldn't run 10 feet and I had just ran 22 the day before in only minor pain. But looking back at it, I did have sore knees and should have taken a few days off. Unfortunately it's impossible to know if that would have obviated my need for surgery. I will not make that mistake again. Knee pain=rest for me from here out.

all you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be

Obesity is a disease. Yes, a disease where nothing tastes bad...except salads.

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rectumdamnnearkilledem

posted: 8/28/2008 at 4:43 PM

Quote from Marcus L S on 8/28/2008 at 4:29 PM:

If you have to take ibuprofen to run, you're making a mistake. You're masking your body telling you that something is wrong and it's just going to get worse.

Not to mention the damage one could do to their kidneys taking vitamin I pre-run. Like Marcus said, there's usually some sort of "deficiency" at work causing the knee issues...whether it be muscular or overpronation, or a bit of both, which is what seems to be at the root of my own knee issues. While a knee strap can help support your kneecap function while you heal, it's no cure--you still have to get to the cause and treat that.

Getting the wind knocked out of you is the only way to

remind your lungs how much they like the taste of air.

~ Sarah Kay

Large Old Runner

Old, Slow, Happy

posted: 8/29/2008 at 6:28 AM

You're all great for taking time to give me advice. Thanks!! I haven't purchased braces, straps, or orthotics yet. I feel like most of you do about the ibuprofen. I'm not much of a medication taker. I did the same as Marcus with steriod injections when I played basketball in college. I guess this is not college basketball. I will take some time to rest and will work with the isometric exercises Zoomy recommended. I might try one of the straps just to be comfortable for some short runs. Thanks again for alll the support!!!

Dijon pupuce

Yoda the 4-eared cat

posted: 8/29/2008 at 3:51 PM
modified: 8/29/2008 at 3:52 PM

Quote from zoom-zoom on 8/28/2008 at 4:43 PM:

Not to mention the damage one could do to their kidneys taking vitamin I pre-run. Like Marcus said, there's usually some sort of "deficiency" at work causing the knee issues...whether it be muscular or overpronation, or a bit of both, which is what seems to be at the root of my own knee issues. While a knee strap can help support your kneecap function while you heal, it's no cure--you still have to get to the cause and treat that.

I was curious about the kidney question as I hadn't heard that before. i found the following article (not scientific): http://coachjoeenglish.wordpress.com/2007/06/05/training-can-i-take-ibuprofen-while-im-running/ The main reason I was curious is that by boyfriend often takes ibuprofen before running to stave off headaches he gets afterwards if it's hot. Admittedly he runs about 30 minutes once every two weeks so warnings to marathon runners may well not apply to him. Any thoughts on that question? Mod to get link to work

RustinSPE

Mr. Muscle

posted: 8/31/2008 at 6:34 PM

Listen dude... You gotta take the time off. I've run through many things and then BOOM! it hits you. An injury you simply cannot run through. Take the few days/week now or you will regret it later. They're right about ibuprphen. It masks the inury allowing you to hurt it more. You're not too old, but you run a lot of miles on a road and that happens. You have to listen to your body! I also agree with the quads. Not as much strengthening them, but making them flexible. A muscle inbalance can cause all sorts of trouble. Take it from someone who was out for a year and a half. Take the short time now or pay later. How's that for advice DAD!!

Large Old Runner

Old, Slow, Happy

posted: 8/31/2008 at 7:50 PM

Quote from Mishka-old log on 8/28/2008 at 3:31 PM:

I have knee pain at the bottom edge of my patella, where the patellar tendon meets the patella. Not sure where yours is Big Richard, but I picked up an Ace knee strap for $12.99 at Walgreens 2 weeks ago and it has worked wonders. This is what I picked up: The knee pain is nearly gone. I wear it most of the time and always when running. I don't find it to be intrusive when I run. Too early to tell if I'm becoming dependent on it, but my thoughts are: get rid of the pain, then strenghten the supporting muscles to prevent its return. I'd be willing to bet that if I took it off and continued to run with the same supporting muscle deficiencies, the pain would return.

Just to show that not everything works for everyone, I tried this and it was terrible. I gave it to my daughter. In answer to the pushy young man who claims to be my son, I ran 12 mainly pain free miles this morning. I am doing Zoomy's isometrics. They seem to be helping a lot. You can look at my log to see that I took off two days last week and ran short on another. Of course, the days off were because of coaching soccer matches. Anyway, things weem to be getting better. Again, Thank you all for your help!! (except that last guy) (He really is my son Smile

I need help (actually sympathy) with the same old thing (runner knee) (Read 977 times)