1234

Is there any science behind the long run rule (Read 301 times)

tom1961


Old , Ugly and slow

    The long run rule of long run should be only 20% 0f your weekly  total. This was started by Arthur lyndiard who thought every one should run a 100 miles a week and do a 20 mile long run.

    first race sept 1977 last race sept 2007

     

    2019  goals   1000  miles  , 190 pounds , deadlift 400 touch my toes

    rmcj001


      Think Hanson's says that long run should be 20-33% of weekly mileage, but no more than 3 hours.  Here's a previous  thread from RA

      For me in my peak marathon training weeks that amounted to 18.5/70+ or 25-26%.  Last 3 weeks have been 15/50 or 30%.  In these weeks, I'm typically running 6-7 days a week.  If you only running 3-4 days a week, it's very hard to keep the long runs in this level.


      Ray

       

      jmsab23


        On a side note, and after experiencing calf cramps at about the same spot in my two marathons (mile 22 or 23), why do they suggest the "longest" long run can top out at 20 miles. I've only found 1 plan that suggests longer than 20 (24). The 6-mile gap between a 20-mile long run and the actual full marathon is fairly big. Any suggestions? I BQ'd and will be running Boston in April. I'd rather not have this happen again, and am considering ramping up the long run distance in my training, good or bad.

        "No man can ever know all he needs until he first knows himself."---- James Steele

        PRs:

        5K - 20:39.   4-mile - 28:15.    5-mile - 35:36.     10k - 44:51.   HM - 1:38:23.  FM: 3:36:25

        tom1961


        Old , Ugly and slow

          Running more days and miles is better.  All my best times were run on 6-7 days a week. But i trained for a 15 mile race several years on 3 days a week when my long run would be over 50% of my miles. I am not saying this is the best way to train.

          first race sept 1977 last race sept 2007

           

          2019  goals   1000  miles  , 190 pounds , deadlift 400 touch my toes

          rmcj001


            On a side note, and after experiencing calf cramps at about the same spot in my two marathons (mile 22 or 23), why do they suggest the "longest" long run can top out at 20 miles. I've only found 1 plan that suggests longer than 20 (24). The 6-mile gap between a 20-mile long run and the actual full marathon is fairly big. Any suggestions? I BQ'd and will be running Boston in April. I'd rather not have this happen again, and am considering ramping up the long run distance in my training, good or bad.

             

            So, IIRC, Hanson's method says that you want to limit things to 3 hours or less.  For most of us that works out to right around 20 miles. The book talked about physiological negatives out weighing positives at that point. So Hanson's puts more weight on the absolute max of time for any run.

             

            As for cramps, there is one school of thought that you have gone too fast for your fitness level.  There are at least 1 or two studies that support this. At last year's Boston Marathon Expo they were giving out "Re-Lyte" sport caps.  I left mine in the hotel and had to walk over the last two miles because of cramping. DW took her's and was using them every 2 miles starting at mile 20 - said stopped them cold.  At Big Sur I started cramping up at mile 24.5 and used one tab and cramps went away.  Now it could be psychological, but they seemed to do the trick.

             

            Congrats on your BQ, you should really enjoy it!


            Ray

             

              Training a body that can run a distance well is a different task than moving that body over a distance.

               

              The strength to be able to handle long runs comes from the smaller stimuli of daily easy runs, which are training stimuli that the body can easily absorb and grow through. Take the reasoning to the extreme: surely it would not be good training for the marathon to run a marathon every day. Why not? Because it would break the body down; it would be too much stimulus.

               

              A long run is a hard workout, and like any hard workout, it's most effective if the body is both strong and relatively rested before and after the workout so that it can respond to the larger stimulus. That's why long runs are a smaller piece of the training puzzle than may be intuitive.

               

              The 20% number is a rule of thumb -- individual runners may respond better to a larger or smaller percentage, depending on their strengths and weaknesses and training background.

                There's a LOT of theories and opinions and one-size-fits-most rules, but I think most are based on personal experience and lore than on scientific study.

                 

                But personal experience and lore are based on trial and error, so they are not insignificant nor to be dismissed.

                 

                Everyone is slightly different, and some people are really different in regard to how the respond to training. I think the "no more than 20%" rule is a safety rule, that if you stay within that you have a low chance of injury. But some people do their long runs as 50% or even 80% of their weekly miles without ill effect. And we have to adapt our running schedule to our life schedule. Some people work 12+ hours a day during the week, and do 80-100% of their miles on the weekend.

                 

                I haven't looked it up, but I'll bet Jack Daniels has some data on long runs. I'd trust his results.

                55-59 age group  -  University of Oregon alumni  -  Irreverent and Annoying

                  If I could find the time to run 100 miles a week, I'd be a monster.

                  55-59 age group  -  University of Oregon alumni  -  Irreverent and Annoying

                  tahoeblue


                    If I could find the time to run 100 miles a week, I'd be a monster.

                     

                    You already are a monster, Bill!


                    Still kicking

                      I blew the theory out of the water for myself, when I started training for ultras, without significantly upping my weekly miles. I started running 30 mile long runs, but maintained my weekly mileage at 50-60 mpw. After a year and 4 months of this, I ran my masters marathon PR, no cramps, and it was a walk in the park, and a BQ -17:00

                      I'm also on Athlinks and Strava

                      spinach


                        The long run rule of long run should be only 20% 0f your weekly  total. This was started by Arthur lyndiard who thought every one should run a 100 miles a week and do a 20 mile long run.

                         

                        I only run 5 days a week, so I guess all of my runs should be my long run. I guess they will also be my short runs too.

                        DavePNW


                          On a side note, and after experiencing calf cramps at about the same spot in my two marathons (mile 22 or 23), why do they suggest the "longest" long run can top out at 20 miles. I've only found 1 plan that suggests longer than 20 (24). The 6-mile gap between a 20-mile long run and the actual full marathon is fairly big. Any suggestions? I BQ'd and will be running Boston in April. I'd rather not have this happen again, and am considering ramping up the long run distance in my training, good or bad.

                           

                          For me, I would take it as a signal if there are no published plans out there which include a super-long run. But of course everyone is free to do their own thing.

                          Do you think your cramps are a result only of the distance, or also of the distance at that pace? If the latter - do you plan to do your super-long training run(s) at marathon pace?

                          Dave

                          Bert-o


                          I lost my rama

                            Interesting discussion.  I think of it more as a guideline than a rule... and we have to find what works for each of us.  For me, the rule that matters most is overall training volume.  My best marathon was off three 16 mile LR's, but the most average MPW and slowest average training pace.  So basically the most cumulative time on feet training.  I got a 30 second negative split in the race including a 20 second pee break in mile 24.

                             

                            This year I ran Chicago off one 16 mile training run and an 18 mile trail race.  Hammy issues and the heat made it a sub-par race, but I had no problem completing the distance.

                             

                            OTOH - I will be joining Dean next year and load up heavily on the weekends to start ultra training.  It will be interesting to see how that works out in contrast.

                            3/17 - NYC Half

                            4/28 - Big Sur Marathon  DNS

                            6/29 - Forbidden Forest 30 Hour

                            8/29 - A Race for the Ages - will be given 47 hours

                               

                              For me, I would take it as a signal if there are no published plans out there which include a super-long run. But of course everyone is free to do their own thing.

                              Well that isn't exactly true.  Here is at least one plan which includes overdistance running.  And their "Competitive" plan includes a 30M run.

                               

                              http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_4/129.shtml

                               

                              Interesting that the over distance running worked for Dean from K's.  We are all truly individual in how we respond to different types of training.  Maybe it also has to do with how much experience (years running) a person has.

                              After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting.  It is not logical, but it is often true. - Mr. Spock, Star Trek episode "Amok Time"

                              ilanarama


                              Pace Prophet

                                That's not a rule promulgated by anyone other than Lydiard, and possibly not by him either, since at least by googling I can't find this prescription at all. Most coaches suggest the long run should be 25-33% of one's weekly mileage, and all of them other than Galloway (who is a special case, I think) advocate for the LR being less than 50% of one's weekly mileage.

                                 

                                Galloway actually advocates for a 26-mile LR three weeks before the marathon.  I did this for my first, and I don't think it helped other than psychologically.  (His is a very low mileage program.)  I usually did a 22M LR, but for my last and best marathon I ran 19.3 as my longest LR (three different times), and I really feel that total mileage is much more important than LR distance.

                                PRs: 10 1:12:59 (4/2014) 13.1 1:35:55 (10/2013) 26.2 3:23:31 (12/2013)

                                bloggy stuff at http://ilanarama.dreamwidth.org

                                1234