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Maintaining form at recovery paces (Read 169 times)

Cellardoor


    Hey folks...I lurk a lot, but I think this might be the first time I've posted.

     

    I got back into consistently running a few months ago, and decided to try using a heart rate monitor to stabilize my efforts and prevent overtraining. After the initial shock at how slowly i'm being told to run based off the HRM, I have another problem: my form.

     

    My form isn't perfect at any pace, but it's pretty solid at better paces (lets say anything below 8:30ish). I could stand to get more midfoot landings and get some consistency from muscle memory, but that's not the point. The issue is running recovery runs in the 10:00s and 11:00s seems to preclude me from running anywhere near optimally. My ground contact time is bad, I end up sort of "bouncing" because I'm trying to slow down, and by extension my legs take more of an impact. I also can't get my legs kicking back (towards my butt) effectively. To give you an idea, my Cadence goes down to somewhere around 157-160 from the normal 178-183. Am I missing something obvious? How do you folks run the same at such drastically different paces? It's getting to the point where I'm actually concerned about injury when I'm running slower due to bad mechanics.

     

    Cheers folks.

      I find it easier to maintain good form at slower paces than faster paces because you don't need as much hip extension (all most none, really, at shuffling paces.)

       

      How are you defining good form?

       

      I focus on keeping my spine straight and pelvis neutral and don't worry about foot strike. Foot strike for me is naturally a function of pace. I have never measured ground contact either but it just seems logical that would naturally be a function of pace as well so I wouldn't worry about it. It may feel awkward if you're not used to it but your legs are not taking more of s beating at slower paces ... because physics.

      Runners run


      Latent Runner

        Hey folks...I lurk a lot, but I think this might be the first time I've posted.

         

        I got back into consistently running a few months ago, and decided to try using a heart rate monitor to stabilize my efforts and prevent overtraining. After the initial shock at how slowly i'm being told to run based off the HRM, I have another problem: my form.

         

        My form isn't perfect at any pace, but it's pretty solid at better paces (lets say anything below 8:30ish). I could stand to get more midfoot landings and get some consistency from muscle memory, but that's not the point. The issue is running recovery runs in the 10:00s and 11:00s seems to preclude me from running anywhere near optimally. My ground contact time is bad, I end up sort of "bouncing" because I'm trying to slow down, and by extension my legs take more of an impact. I also can't get my legs kicking back (towards my butt) effectively. To give you an idea, my Cadence goes down to somewhere around 157-160 from the normal 178-183. Am I missing something obvious? How do you folks run the same at such drastically different paces? It's getting to the point where I'm actually concerned about injury when I'm running slower due to bad mechanics.

         

        Cheers folks.

         

        There is a school of thought which says, until your form is good when you're running slow, your form will not be good at any other pace.  The only reason why your form might seem better at faster paces is that momentum is masking the form issues.

         

        I'm not sure I completely buy that school of thought, but in my experience it does seem to have at least some credence.

        Fat old man PRs:

        • 1-mile (point to point, gravity assist): 5:50
        • 2-mile: 13:49
        • 5K (gravity assist last mile): 21:31
        • 5-Mile: 37:24
        • 10K (first 10K of my Half Marathon): 48:16
        • 10-Mile (first 10 miles of my Half Marathon): 1:17:40
        • Half Marathon: 1:42:13


        Feeling the growl again

          At 10-11 mpm, you'll need to shorten your stride and you simple won't have leg kickback to your butt.  You're going too slow to need it.  Good form looks different at different paces.

           

          Footfall can also differ based on pace.  At slower training paces for me (6:40+ mpm) trainers feel best and if I'm wearing flats it feels awkward.  At faster paces (say 6:00 or faster) I can tell my footstrike changes and the higher heel of trainers feels awkward but flats are smooth.

          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

           

          I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

           

            For me, I worry less about footfall and more about the rest of my body.  Thinking about running tall, or keeping my spine straight, letting my knees lead the way, shorter stride at slower pace -and a relaxed upper body.

             

            Some recovery runs I will focus on good form.....but others I just....uh recover.

            Ready, go.

             

            Cellardoor


              I find it easier to maintain good form at slower paces than faster paces because you don't need as much hip extension (all most none, really, at shuffling paces.)

               

              How are you defining good form?

               

              I focus on keeping my spine straight and pelvis neutral and don't worry about foot strike. Foot strike for me is naturally a function of pace. I have never measured ground contact either but it just seems logical that would naturally be a function of pace as well so I wouldn't worry about it. It may feel awkward if you're not used to it but your legs are not taking more of s beating at slower paces ... because physics.

               

              I guess maybe I'm looking at the wrong culprits for my issues. When I'm able to increase my turnover I feel like my footfall is much lighter, more to the midfoot, and I'm able to sort of drive through. At lower paces I might just have a bad idea of what the "right" way to run is. When I was training on teams in HS and College I don't think I ever ran slower than 8mms. If I can't get the hip extension and push through I'm used to I'll have to find a different way to keep myself from literally pounding pavement. About the only things I feel like I'm doing right at slow paces are keeping my spine upright and keeping my landing zone below my body.

              Cellardoor


                At 10-11 mpm, you'll need to shorten your stride and you simple won't have leg kickback to your butt.  You're going too slow to need it.  Good form looks different at different paces.

                 

                Footfall can also differ based on pace.  At slower training paces for me (6:40+ mpm) trainers feel best and if I'm wearing flats it feels awkward.  At faster paces (say 6:00 or faster) I can tell my footstrike changes and the higher heel of trainers feels awkward but flats are smooth.

                 

                First: holy hell. Remind me to take a look at your training logs when I get back into shape.

                 

                Second, I've got my normal trainers (Ghost 4s), which feel pretty good at all paces, though I think I'm going to go in for a fitting when I buy my second pair in the rotation. My others are PureCadences, which I'm feeling a little underprotected in at all paces currently. I can see the logic behind your second paragraph, and I may have to start trying to detect differences with different shoes. Overall, I'm convinced i'm being a bit too rigid with my expectations for my running gait/form. I need to settle in and figure out how best to run at slower speeds before I end up with too my pounding and get injured. The good news is at slow paces I'm so bored I'll have plenty of focus to put on it Smile


                Feeling the growl again

                  If you feel you are pounding, you are either heel-striking or over-striding -- the latter of which will cause you to increase the vertical displacement during each stride and land harder.  At the paces you describe, your strides will be pretty short, with very little vertical displacement required.  You probably just need to put some attention on increasing your cadence.  It should not decrease much from running at your faster training paces.

                  "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                   

                  I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

                   

                  Cellardoor


                    If you feel you are pounding, you are either heel-striking or over-striding -- the latter of which will cause you to increase the vertical displacement during each stride and land harder.  At the paces you describe, your strides will be pretty short, with very little vertical displacement required.  You probably just need to put some attention on increasing your cadence.  It should not decrease much from running at your faster training paces.

                     

                    Agreed. I'm struggling with increasing my Cadence at those "recovery" paces though. I ran with a friend today and went 9:07 (warmup), 8:09, 7:18, 6:35. The warmup didn't feel good, but that was due to the terrain. The rest of them felt great. I checked my Cadence afterward, and it was between 170 and 209.

                     

                    So do you folks run your recovery runs at a quick stride? Maybe I just need to find a way to shorten my strides even more and increase turnover?


                    Feeling the growl again

                       

                       

                       

                      So do you folks run your recovery runs at a quick stride?

                       

                      My stride rate does not vary a lot no matter what my pace is.  It just shortens as I go slower.  Including with friends who run 8-10min/mile.

                      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                       

                      I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

                       

                         

                        My stride rate does not vary a lot no matter what my pace is.  It just shortens as I go slower.  Including with friends who run 8-10min/mile.

                        +1 -  I run 8-10 min miles most of the time (actually more like 9-10 min/miles with occasional 8 min mile), and my stride rate is pretty consistent at 180-185, stride length is what determines my pace.  I can sometimes hit 200-205  but that is because I am consciously trying to run with short, quick strides as a drill.

                        Mr R


                          Here's an interesting blog post about running form: http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/11/speed-stride-length-x-stride-frequency.html

                           

                          The takehome is that we honestly don't have a clue what ideal running form is, and we certainly don't know that we can train to improve it. (It's very tough to do scientific studies on this, because it would require total retraining. With most skills, people who have become proficient doing something the wrong way will be worse when first trying to do it the right way. All the evidence currently indicates that intentional form manipulation decreases efficiency, but there are no studies whatsoever dealing with long term retraining of form.) At this point, it's really not worth worrying about. For what it's worth, I've done recovery runs with sub 2:10 Kenyans, and their form at recovery pace has absolutely nothing to do with what they look like at race pace.

                          What was the secret, they wanted to know; in a thousand different ways they wanted to know The Secret. And not one of them was prepared, truly prepared to believe that it had not so much to do with chemicals and zippy mental tricks as with that most unprofound and sometimes heart-rending process of removing, molecule by molecule, the very tough rubber that comprised the bottoms of his training shoes. The Trial of Miles, Miles of Trials. How could they be expected to understand that? -John Parker

                             

                            My stride rate does not vary a lot no matter what my pace is.  It just shortens as I go slower.  Including with friends who run 8-10min/mile.

                             

                            +1 - I do many of my easy runs with newer runners at slower paces - but my cadence is fairly consistent.

                            Ready, go.

                             

                            Mr R


                              For people who say their cadence doesn't change at recovery pace, are you actually measuring cadence with a footpod, or are you just guessing. It's VERY unusual for cadence not to change between race pace and recovery pace. Most people won't notice, however, if they go from 170 to 183 or so, unless they have a device actually measuring. Counting steps for a minute isn't a reliable way to measure either, because most people who perceive of a higher cadence as better will subconsciously increase their cadence while they're counting steps. When they zone out, their cadence drops again.

                              What was the secret, they wanted to know; in a thousand different ways they wanted to know The Secret. And not one of them was prepared, truly prepared to believe that it had not so much to do with chemicals and zippy mental tricks as with that most unprofound and sometimes heart-rending process of removing, molecule by molecule, the very tough rubber that comprised the bottoms of his training shoes. The Trial of Miles, Miles of Trials. How could they be expected to understand that? -John Parker