Forums >Racing>2018 3:20 (and beyond)
Pace Prophet
Arvind - looks good! I think that holding mileage fairly stable through the program (rather than starting low and building to a peak that's significantly higher than average mpw) is better for building endurance. And as far as the starting too early goes, I actually think that's a good idea, builds in a "mulligan week" where if you're sick or on vacation or have a niggle you want to rest, you don't need to stress about fitting your program around it.
CK - Fires are not put out, but they are contained in the direction of civilization (50%), and the expectation is that the monsoonal pattern of afternoon thunderstorms will keep them from being a problem until sufficient precip actually puts them out. The worry now is flooding on the burn scars...can't win. But most of the areas which were closed for the fire are reopened now - the bike ride we did on Sunday was on one of the trails where the fire teams had done a lot of underbrush prep work for maintaining fire lines. And yay for a stroller run!
There is a local brewpub beer for which a tiny umbrella would not be out of place, Carver's Raspberry Wheat Ale. It looks like pink soda pop and is super refreshing.
Tempo run this morning went okay. I wish I'd started half an hour earlier, though. I'd planned on 2x2.5 but forgot to program it and didn't feel like watching my Garmin, so I did 3M, 2 min, 2M.
ETA top of page twice in a row, oops?
Problem Child
Brew - When you start his program, he says in his book to either go with a recent race result, preferably 10k or longer (not sure when you ran your 10k you based your times on), or to go with your goal pace and step back 2 units on your Vdot value from that pace. He then also recommends increasing your paces with 1 vdot value every 6 weeks, so the last weeks are done at goal pace. The tricky part is, since his marathon pace is pretty aggressive, this will often result in paces for the other workouts that seem slow. Also because off the aggressive m-pace, when I ordered a program from them (which I'm not using by the way, I did 2Q from the book instead), my m-pace at the start of the program ended up actually being faster than goal m-pace (I told them 3:20 was my goal). When I set up my 2Q program I based the paces on my HM in February (gave me Vdot of 48.1, higher than my marathon), but in reality I've been doing my workouts at 49.2 instead.
So this is effectively what I did. My 10K was May 2018. Based on the VDOT math I found it's a 48.8. If I pick goal marathon pace and come back to it's a 48 (3:07 ballpark) and I'm at the point of needing to increase pace then again in about 6 weeks to goal pace. If I use my current 10K pace I'd stick with the VDOT paces around a 49 and go up from there. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I see M paces as 7:24 for 6 weeks, then 7:17, then 7:07/mi for the last 6 weeks. How did you and keen start with paces faster than your goal pace?
I think marathon training is just really hard.
Skipped the workout this morning because I didn't really have time for 2 hours of running. I CONSIDERED doing PART of it but I passed on that and went for just doing miles this week. I think doing half the workout would have built false confidence. Pretty much the same as last week at the lake (3T, 2T, 6:56 pace twice, 2 minute rest) but All I really could have gotten done was 3T.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Cobra Commander Keen
Ilana - Maybe you're a Page Prophet as well as a Pace Prophet.
Brew - I gave my 10k and HM results from the spring along with descriptions of the courses/conditions and what I got back lined up with the (better, but slightly older and in more favorable conditions) 10k VDOT. I wondered about it given the relative lull in training between the race and the start of the plan, but left it. As for why the "projected" race pace is 1 sec/mi slower than my current VDOT M pace, I have no idea. It's doubtful I'd be able to hold either come race day, though. 3T, 2T sounds tough. I've "only" got 1T, 2T, 1T tomorrow.
Had a minor freak-out last night. I "knew" I had a workout today and checked my Garmin calendar to make sure it would show on my watch. No workout there, but there was on Thursday. And the next Thursday... Was bummed that I was going to move all of the TH workouts to Wed (following my training plan from the spring), but checked my actual training plan calendar to make sure (how many calendars does it take to run a marathon?) and found out things were already correct. Pretty psyched that I get an "extra" rest day between workouts - something tells me I'm going to end up needing it.
It's strangely quiet in the Keen household. All 4 of my girls just packed up and went to my parents' for the weekend (originally they planned to leave tomorrow). Maybe I'll get in another group run and some more pho!
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Interesting article on the Nike Vaporflys, using Strava data:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/18/upshot/nike-vaporfly-shoe-strava.html
Resident Millennial
oregon beat me to the punch! came here to post that link.
(will catch up... eventually...)
_________________________________________________mile, 5:26 /5k, 19:34 /10k, 41:00 /13.1, 1:31:49 /26.2, 3:12:58
Speed Surplus
Hey, all - I went to the doctor today to finally get my shoulder assessed by a specialist. And... drumroll please... I have frozen shoulder.
It's a good news/bad news diagnosis. The good news is that I don't need surgery, my rotator cuff looks fine, I can keep running and being active, and I can get a cortisone shot to reduce the pain.
The bad news is that I just have to wait for it to thaw, and it can sometimes last for 18 months. I've already had it for 4 months and the doc thinks I'm in the worst of it right now, so maybe mine will only be a 6-8 month deal.
I got a cortisone shot today and it seems to be helping with the pain, although my shoulder feels numb and just generally weird.
5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12
Keen: I was thinking about it on my run. I believe my thought was that you’re a fast 10k runner and a slower marathoner. I think RLK was the same way at CIM last year where her times said she could do 3:15 (or faster) and she went 3:20. She’s a FAST 5k runner. Compare that to my Current 5 and 10K times and what they predict for marathon. I’d have to pull older race times to see what they were in 2016. 1:34:26 predicts 3:18 on McMillan’s website. I went 3:13.
TL;DR: marathon training sucks. Calculators don’t work. No one cares work harder (Cameron Hanes)
California is on fire. It’s polluting my air. Thanks Yosemite fire. Marathon training already sucks when it’s 100F all week. You throw smoke in the mix.
Oregon - Nifty article. There are several other variables that I'd like to see controlled for (not that it can really happen), but they did acknowledge that was an issue. Oh, and the "semi-local semi-pro" I met at a race last year was one of the "subject" mentioned/pictured.
SClever - Decent news about the shoulder, and hopefully you are on the fast track to getting past it. "frozen shoulder" isn't something I had heard of before, so I had to do a bit of research. Since last weekend I've been dealing with a bit of a shoulder issue myself. Nothing bad at all, really, mostly just an annoyance. Occasionally it feels like something is swollen in my right shoulder, which leads to weakness and an occasionally infuriating feeling that's akin to having an itch that can't be scratched. A hold-over from dislocating it in my late teens.
Brew - I readily admit that my 10k to HM distance races have historically been my strongest. Even in training I've always felt most comfortable with threshold type workouts, which fit well with those distances. You're getting 100* weather now too, huh? Luckily we had some clouds and rain roll in today that kept us from getting that hot today. Tomorrow has a high of 105* though . Thankfully temps are still dropping to the mid-70's overnight.
I am also not able to co-relate the prediction time and the actual results. Based on my half of 1:30 VODT preditcs 3:07 . I managed only 3:22. Also I cannot run short distances at the pace it predicts. I somehow have hit a sweet spot for my half
Keen: I was thinking about it on my run. I believe my thought was that you’re a fast 10k runner and a slower marathoner. I think RLK was the same way at CIM last year where her times said she could do 3:15 (or faster) and she went 3:20. She’s a FAST 5k runner. Compare that to my Current 5 and 10K times and what they predict for marathon. I’d have to pull older race times to see what they were in 2016. 1:34:26 predicts 3:18 on McMillan’s website. I went 3:13. TL;DR: marathon training sucks. Calculators don’t work. No one cares work harder (Cameron Hanes) California is on fire. It’s polluting my air. Thanks Yosemite fire. Marathon training already sucks when it’s 100F all week. You throw smoke in the mix.
Hey, all - I went to the doctor today to finally get my shoulder assessed by a specialist. And... drumroll please... I have frozen shoulder. It's a good news/bad news diagnosis. The good news is that I don't need surgery, my rotator cuff looks fine, I can keep running and being active, and I can get a cortisone shot to reduce the pain. The bad news is that I just have to wait for it to thaw, and it can sometimes last for 18 months. I've already had it for 4 months and the doc thinks I'm in the worst of it right now, so maybe mine will only be a 6-8 month deal. I got a cortisone shot today and it seems to be helping with the pain, although my shoulder feels numb and just generally weird.
Good o hear about your shoulder. Hope it recovers quickly
"Based on my half of 1:30 VODT preditcs 3:07 . I managed only 3:22."
Don't feel bad Arvind. I only managed 3:22 after running 1:28 for the half.
No idea what my half fitness was for my recent marathon PR, but I suspect maybe slightly faster than 1:28.
Alistair - I hope you can solve your achilles issues. Your paces don't seem to vary that much. What are your recent (before all that time off) race times?
I qualified for Boston with a 3:27:00 time.
I know I generally run to fast, and find it almost impossible to run slow enough for proper recovery runs.
What paces do you recommend?
Arvind - not being able to hit the marathon time for your half suggests that your more mileage plan is the right approach. More speed than endurance. Not being able to race well at short distances just means you suck at embracing the pain (like me)
Clever - how can you have a frozen shoulder in the summer? Won't it just thaw out and melt? Clearly I don't know anything about this type of ailment! I hope it heals well and soon.
Vaporfly article - there are certainly a lot of variables and assumptions, and weird apples and oranges comparisons, but it's interesting. That's a lot of money for shoes that only last 100 miles, though. In related news, I bought three pairs of (discontinued) Mizuno Catalysts from the Mizuno website for $50 each, free shipping. They only last me about 300 miles.
Alistair - do you have any short race times - 10k or half, or anything else? That's what you really should be basing your paces on, and actually, you should race one now rather than depending on your time before your long break. But even given your (old) marathon time and pretending that means your current fitness, and plugging it into the https://runsmartproject.com/calculator/embed/index.php calculator: your easy runs should be 8:45-9:20 pace, your tempo runs 7:20-7:40. So your workout of 5m ( 8:50 pace), 3m (7:50 pace), 2m (8:30 pace) would be better as 8:50/7:20/8:50. Running 8:36 the day before probably harms your ability to run as fast as you need to for the tempo, and the 8:15 on Sunday is - again, it's not easy enough to be an easy run, but it's too easy to be a hard one.
I am waiting for my SU to get ready since I promised him I'd run with him today. Grrr this means running later when it's already getting warm. If it were up to me I would have left half an hour ago. The things we do for marital harmony!
Strict WTF adherent
I'm not sure I know anyone who runs a 3:07 full off a 1:30 half.
+1
SC ~ Ouch.