2018 3:20 (and beyond) (Read 581 times)

runethechamp


    I'll put my formal introduction in the introductions thread but wanted to join in here as I plan to run a marathon sometime in 2018, and preferably in 3:20 or faster. I haven't decided on the race yet though, could possibly but not probably be Oakland the last week of March, San Francisco in July, or something flat in Europe early fall. I've never been a high mileage runner underscored by the fact that last week was my highest mileage week ever at 48.7, only because the long run from the week before was run on Monday.

     

    I'm currently in week 4 of a 15 week Jack Daniels marathon program that tops out at 42 miles per week. This is timed for the Oakland marathon, but I haven't yet decided if I want to run the full or the half marathon that weekend. I also did this thing where I ran every day in December so that helped a bit on the mileage as well. Last week of training was as follows:

     

     

    <tfoot> </tfoot>
    Day Miles Pace Duration Description HR Link
    Mon 12.0 8:41 1:44 12 Easy for Christmas 136 (71%) strava
    Tue 4.2 9:34 0:40 Evening Run 123 (64%) strava
    Wed 3.0 10:06 0:30 Evening Run 116 (60%) strava
    Thu 8.0 8:56 1:11 Holiday Intervals 141 (73%) strava
    Fri 3.1 9:46 0:29 Evening Run 118 (61%) strava
    Sat 3.1 9:40 0:30 Afternoon Run 120 (63%) strava
    Sun 15.3 8:29 2:09 Long end to the year and Marcothon 2017 138 (72%) strava
      48.7 8:58 7:17      

    5k: 20:32 (1/17)  |  HM: 1:34:37 (2/18)  |  FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)

     

    Shuffling

    darkwave


    Mother of Cats

      Rune - welcome.  We've got several other SF/Oakland types here!  What is Marcothon?

       

      Cdave - I didn't know the woman who beat me until after.  Confirmed, she's significantly faster than me, so I don't feel bad losing to her.  She was definitely the class of the field.    I do feel silly for trying to stay close to her in the first mile Smile

       

      8 "miles" pool-running and upper body weights/core.  I haven't done leg strengthwork in several days, so I tried that this morning, since my next track workout isn't until Friday.  Nope - that 5K took more out of me than I thought.

      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

       

      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

      runethechamp


        Thanks Darkwave. Marcothon is some thing that originated in Scotland where you run every day in December, 3 miles or 25 minutes, whatever comes first. I did at least 3 miles every day in between my training program but really felt like it was time to take a day off yesterday, so I did. In anticipation of the expected rain tomorrow I don't get much of a break though with 9 miles at m-pace on the program for tonight.

         

        If anyone has any experience with Jack Daniels training programs it would be interesting to hear how you treat his m-pace in training since he is pretty aggressive in his marathon time predictions. Do you follow his aggressive m-pace, or do you settle on a more realistic one when the longer m-pace runs are on the program?

        5k: 20:32 (1/17)  |  HM: 1:34:37 (2/18)  |  FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)

         

        Shuffling

        AceHarris


          Rune: Welcome! I haven't trained with a JD program, but have read his book. If I didn't use a coach, I'd use Daniel's. That's probably not very helpful. Do you use your HR data much to influence your training?

          Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 18:10 (2017), 10k: 38:25 (2017, course was 6.1), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:57:18 (2018)

            Champ ~ Welcome. I've never done a full Daniels' plan, but have always treated M pace for training purposes as slightly faster than average goal pace on the theory one should go out a bit easier come race day, will have some slower than average miles (e.g. through the hills at Boston), and inevitably (for most of us) fade. So M pace becomes the cherry-picked fastest 16 or so miles.

             

            Greg McMillan tried to kill me today! 10 sets of 6/7 hills.

            runethechamp


              Ace - Thanks, I do use my HR somewhat in my training. On longer easy runs I usually try to keep it under a certain level (145 most of the time), and I also use it to gauge my effort on tempo runs, where I expect it to reach 170 sometime during the last mile on the shorter ones and maybe the last couple of miles on the longer ones. I don't use it as an absolute target or goal during training but find it useful as a tool on the side.

               

              Dad - Thanks for the advice. If I stick with Daniels' pace it will most probably be a little bit faster than final goal pace so that might be the way to go.

               

              Had to abort my m-pace run yesterday due to an unhappy stomach so we'll try again tomorrow 

              5k: 20:32 (1/17)  |  HM: 1:34:37 (2/18)  |  FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)

               

              Shuffling

              darkwave


              Mother of Cats

                Rune - hope the MP went better today.

                 

                Dad - that 6/7 does look tough.  Smart way to gain from being on the treadmill.

                 

                6.5 very easy to yoga (9:03), yoga, and then another 3.5 very easy (8:51) plus drills and strides.  Did 10 total miles today instead of 12 because my coach moved Friday's tempo workout to Thursday, due to impending bomb cyclone.

                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                 

                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                Brewing Runner


                3:56 marathoner at heart

                  dad that workout looks pretty hard. It actually looks like something that would be great for keeping in shape for people living in the cold states where snow falls.

                  max I might have bought accessories for traveling slowly uphill. I may have thought about you when I got them.  I don't know why I bought them since I don't plan on using them but maybe when I have to pack NeRP around in a backpack it will help. They definately aren't for ultras.

                   

                  I'm going to throw some TRX workouts in this year. Probably 2-3 times a week depending on how I feel and my schedule. I believe other people said to do them on hard days and not before a hard day. I believe the common response was to do them on hard days either right after a workout (probably not possible with DW waiting for me to get home after training) or at least on the same day.

                   

                  Interestingly I was looking over the Hanson's book last night and they have body weight exercises mixed in with a training plan at the back of the book. They say to keep them around 30 minutes and they actually have workouts scheduled, usually speedwork, with runs the next day and even scheduled F and Sa with a long run on Su.  Theyr'e also kind of against cross training and from my reading they'd rather you run more miles than do anything else to train, unless you can't physically get the miles in.

                   

                  I'll see how it goes trying the 30 minute TRX workouts during the week either in the morning of a speed workout (Tuesdays) like those here advised, and again on Friday/Sunday as Hanson's suggests just to see how things go. I believe it will help me lose weight and gain some core strength along with some more power in the legs or improve overall running form. With Chicago being the actual goal I think by the time June rolls around I should have it figured out.

                   

                  If anyone has input of adding in 30-45 minute weight workouts to a 40-50 mpw running plan I'm all ears. I don't see myself taking up cycling on days I run. I might as well go full triathlon at that point.

                   

                  Today's run went from "just finish so you get the weekly miles up" to trying to see what the heartrate and pace are. Since I'm hoping to go sub-90 in the half I'll need some speed. Since I know tempo workouts are a large part of Hanson's marathon I just thought I'd go for it based on heart rate. Paces were all over the place after a 3 mile jog. Most of it was downhill and it wasn't ever really "fun" but I was able to keep the HR where it's at for racing with a 1 mile cooldown. It just showed me I have a LONG way to go if I'm going to push 7:00 pace any time soon. Oh yeah, add in I don't have a recent 5 or 10K and I think the soonest I have one scheduled is March 11. My half is April 14. #doomedmuch?

                  1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                  5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                  10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                  Half: 1:29* (2019 CIM first half)

                  Marathon 2:59* (2019 CIM)

                  Annual Miles 2,121 miles

                  *CIM is a NET downhill course and the weather is unpredictable.

                   

                  2020 Goal: Short Distance PRs so people won't make fun of me. 

                  CommanderKeen


                  Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                    Greetings, all! I see several new usernames around here, which is awesome.

                     

                    Brew - I certainly think sub-90 is within reach for you. Lots of tempo runs have certainly helped me there, and I have also developed a liking for E11's McMillan-style steady state/easy medium work.

                    How's NeRP doing?

                     

                    Laying out some initial (performance based) goals for 2018:

                    • 2,600 miles
                    • 18:50 5k
                    • 38:30 10k
                    • 1:27:50 HM
                    • 3:15 FM

                    Treadmill gets here Friday! I'm strangely looking forward to this. It should make it easier to get in my miles while still being around to help more with DD1-3. Maybe I can even start getting some doubles in just for more easy miles, too.

                    5k: 18:25 10/19 (solo track TT) │ 10k: 38:56 4/18 │ HM: 1:24:16 11/19 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                     

                    Upcoming Races:

                    ?

                    Brewing Runner


                    3:56 marathoner at heart

                      Keen He is doing well. sleeping, eating, pooping, making it somewhat easy for me. Mom seems to be doing well too. No baby blues, no major mood swings, not much of the cliche/worse case/#doomed situations people always seem to talk about or WANT to tell you. I'm imagining #2 will be harder...if we go that direction.

                       

                      Saw this bad boi. Kind of wish more people were willing to travel to Arkansas with me.

                      1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                      5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                      10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                      Half: 1:29* (2019 CIM first half)

                      Marathon 2:59* (2019 CIM)

                      Annual Miles 2,121 miles

                      *CIM is a NET downhill course and the weather is unpredictable.

                       

                      2020 Goal: Short Distance PRs so people won't make fun of me. 

                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                        Keen He is doing well. sleeping, eating, pooping, making it somewhat easy for me. Mom seems to be doing well too. No baby blues, no major mood swings, not much of the cliche/worse case/#doomed situations people always seem to talk about or WANT to tell you. I'm imagining #2 will be harder...if we go that direction.

                         

                        Saw this bad boi. Kind of wish more people were willing to travel to Arkansas with me.

                         

                        Eating/peeing/pooping/playing is always my criteria for whether my cats are OK.

                         

                        That is quite the medal.  I kinda want one now.

                         

                        CK  i'd say "yay for treadmill" but that sounds odd.

                         

                        It snowed this morning, so I ended up meeting some friends and tempoing under the Whitehurst Freeway.

                         

                        For those of you who don't know this, there's a highway in DC (the Whitehurst Freeway) with a street that runs underneath it - "Water Street."  When it snows, runners will meet there to run back and forth under the freeway - it's about 1200m end-to-end one way, so not entirely awful.    However, it's hard to know exact distances run there, since Garmins go crazy and you can't measure on MapMyRun (because you never take the same path or turn at quite the same place twice).  So you just do a time and effort based workout and guestimate distance.

                         

                        My guesstimate is 11 miles total - "3 miles" warm-up (27:10), then a bit over 3 "miles" tempoed in 20:15.  Followed with a bit less than 5 miles cooldown (43:35).  Felt pretty good.  Followed up with injury prevention/leg strengthwork at gym.  Pool closed, so no recovery swimming.

                        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                         

                        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                        Jim E


                          HI all, Sorry I've been neglecting you lately. Life is getting in the way a bit. Oh, and our local faultline got a little frisky and shook me awake at 2:30 this morning. Urgh!

                           

                          Champ - I remember we used to have discussions about Daniels' marathon paces waay back when on Runners World. Yes you can hit his times if your mileage is on the high side. Something like 70mpw.  It worked for me. If your mileage is lower, you will probably still be able to hit the pace for MP runs, but there may be trouble if you try it on race day.

                          Oakland is my local marathon, and I have run SF a bunch of times too. Neither of them are courses I would recommend for a BQ attempt, because hilly. Marathons within driving distance with quicker courses: Napa Valley (I'm running that in er, 8.5 weeks, yikes), Santa Rosa in August, and of course CIM.

                           

                          All I have time for now, more later.

                          runethechamp


                            Thanks Jim. At the moment I haven't even decided what I'm going to run at the Oakland Running Festival in April, the half or the full, I guess I will see how this training feels after two or three more weeks. I decided to stick to the JD M-pace during my run yesterday (ok, I even ended up running it 4 seconds per mile too fast), and right now I have no illusions about being able to run that pace in a marathon as it would give me a finishing time of 3:13 or so. I can keep his other paces during training totally fine and feel like I am working at the right intensity level but his M-pace is pretty rough.

                             

                            Darkwave - Thanks, did the workout yesterday as described above, so it ended up being 9 miles at 7:21 pace. I thought I had it but then had to make a quick stop after mile 7. I decided there was no way I would not finish the workout so I did the last 2 miles after the stop, and while my breathing had recovered it certainly didn't feel like my legs had.

                             

                            I've come to realize that Mr Daniels doesn't mess around, and just this week I noticed that Sunday's run will be pretty much a copy of yesterday's, only with 2k of threshold pace thrown in between mile 6 and 7 of the part at m-pace. Based on how I felt yesterday I will have to work very hard to make it through Sunday in one piece.

                            5k: 20:32 (1/17)  |  HM: 1:34:37 (2/18)  |  FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)

                             

                            Shuffling

                              CDR K & JimE ~ Nice to see more familiar faces checking in.

                               

                              Brew ~ Great to hear to the new one is doing well.

                               

                              DkW ~ When I ran yesterday morning I tried to consider doing some tempo work in that weather. No thanks!

                               

                              Related question for you and E78: should you consider, despite your distaste for it, doing some TM work to do a bit a heat acclimatization before Houston?

                              darkwave


                              Mother of Cats

                                 

                                Related question for you and E78: should you consider, despite your distaste for it, doing some TM work to do a bit a heat acclimatization before Houston?

                                 

                                I don't have a personal distaste for treadmill work.  Quite to the contrary - I did nearly all of my fast running on one for many years (before being coached).

                                 

                                However, my coach dislikes us using them in general, due to injury concerns.  So it's his distaste.

                                 

                                He does agree that they can be used in weather like this, but I don't want to risk it this close to a goal race.  I've literally run less than 5 miles on a treadmill in the past 5 years - jumping on one now for a 10 mile run is just an unnecessary injury risk for a marginal benefit.

                                 

                                I'm honestly not sure it would make that much difference - my issues are generally with humidity, and asthma triggered by it.  Training on a treadmill in dry warm indoor air won't help with any acclimation.  I have considered sitting in a sauna some, per Smax, on the theory that it sounds really nice right now and can't hurt.  But I may not have time between now and Houston to fit that in.

                                 

                                Yay for a Jim appearance!

                                 

                                Brewing - you asked about fitting in weights work.  My general rule: upper body and core on easy days; leg stuff on hard days, right after the running workout, to maximize recovery.  Under no circumstances would I do leg strengthwork the day before a track workout or long run.  And I'd also avoid leg strengthwork the day after, since you should be using that day to adapt to the stresses from the track workout or long run.

                                 

                                yoga and 8 "miles" pool-running for me today.

                                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                                 

                                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.