2018 3:20 (and beyond) (Read 582 times)

mattw4jc


    DW, Brew, rune...

    No other goals, DW. I'm a pace leader for the 1:50 group at a half in December. No worries there. Brew, I can't really come up with a 'good' point. I've been running quite a bit with friends that have been training. And now marathon season is here and, well, I guess I have FOMO - Fear Of Missing Out. I mentioned going under 3:20 in hopes to get a BQ. I probably wouldn't sign up next September, but it'd be nice to have just in case. And it would somewhat validate the running and suffering (albeit off training plan) I did all summer. The friends that are running are not doing the same one I would do. rune - right, my mileage is not far off from some training plans and some of the folks I've been running with. I should've just committed and trained 3 months ago.

     

    e-bikes / commuting
    I rarely see other bikers on my commutes. The ones I do see are recreational / triathlon types. E-bikes don't bother me. Better than a car. SC - I think using one to help keep your commute around an hour is wise. Any commute that is more than one hour each way begins to eat into your free time quite a bit.

    pepperjack


    pie man

      I didn’t catch the guy, so I can’t say what would have happened if I did.  He was coming back on the hills, but maybe just saving for the end.  He was 20 seconds up on me for official time.

       

      16ish hiking today in the lovely Cache Creek Wilderness (now part of Barryessa Snow Mountian National Monument).  Monday hikes are pretty cool, make up for long days the rest of the week.

       

      kinda want to go to healdsburg for the trail running film deal, Thursday makes it hard to manage though.

      11:11 3,000 (recent)

      seattlemax


      Duke Of Bad Judgment

        Hey all.

         

        Racing with other people and how that wrecks your race:  Even worse in ultras.  If two people run together, they each get the benefit of both people's bad spells.  Always run your own race, unless you don't care or care more about running with the other person.

        PJ: I rode past Cobb Mountain in a long bike ride.

        Brew: Feeling for you and your non-BQ.  But you saw Gene Simmons so that makes it all worthwhile.  Right?  There are a couple small marathons up here in Beerland in May and June.  Capital City and North Olympic Discovery.  Neither is as optimal as CIM, and Capital City is probably the best of the two.  And Tunnel...  If you aren't trained for the downhill, it will kill you.  If you are trained, it's not cheating.

        HEY!!!!: Just because I'm off running a race, it doesn't mean I can become the butt of "threatening to show up at the finish line" jokes.  I definitely resemble those remarks.

        Arvind: Big races: "You have a ton of people all the time".  Ahhhh!  My nightmare.  The best thing about my trail races is that I don't have to interact much with the human race.

        Clever: I used to bike to your work area while training for marathons - I don't think it's an issue.  Just try to do your running workouts (workouts, not easy runs) before you've done the biking.

        Pesto: Congratulations on your sub 3!  Woohoo!

        CalBears: I thought of you this weekend as we drove up the road from Foresthill towards Robinson Flat.

         

        I didn't die in my race this weekend.  A short version of the story.  And exactly 0 of the "famous" people signed up showed up for the race.  Scaredy cats.

        fb-guy


           

          sclever, matt- bike commuters = <3
          I used to be snarky about ebikes ... I bike to work (when I'm not training for marathons) and I used to always get passed on the same hill by a guy wearing khakis and riding a throttle bike. It was annoying! But then my city got a dockless e-bikeshare system (private company) and our docked bikeshare system has a small proportion of e-bikes throughout the system. I live on a steep hill and it gets quite windy here - so e-bikes have become the default thing to look for when coming home dinner or a movie or something.

           

          Be careful and look both ways before you cross an intersection! Remember last time. :-(

           

          We have dockless regular bikes here and it's funny. There are orange bikes lying around everywhere; total chaos. We use dockless car sharing, and it's great because you can drive and park in the no-car zones.

           

          It's a CalBears sighting. Wow. Hello.

           

          PJ -- we lived on Chalk Hill Rd, outside Healdsburg for about 12 years. The road is on the Ironman course for cycling, but it's a bad place to run. I hope you enjoy it; Healdsburg was a sleepy town with wineries in the 80s/90s, but I'll bet it's packed with high end tourist stuff now.

          m: 2:55:04 | 10k: 37:14 | 50mile: 9:35

          Pesto


            Thanks a lot everyone for the congrats!

             

            rlk - I'd go for sub-90 if I were you, provided conditions are good. You seem to be in great shape, and if you feel better than when you ran your PR two years ago, that should be a good indicator as your PR is fairly close to 90. Plus, that 20 miler at sub 8 min pace plus the 10k the following day is a good sign in my opinion. I often tend to be more aggressive with HM goals than with FM, as a miscalculation is not as painful.

             

            McB - as to the reason behind the sprint, I just wanted it to end as soon as possible.

             

            arv - sounds like the right decision.

             

            max - congrats on not dying!

             

            matt - I know this is late, but go for it.

             

            Ok, RR here:

             

            Graz Marathon, Oct 14 2018 (originally Amsterdam Oct 21)

            Training

            Not the best cycle I've had. Used a JD 2Q plan for 60-70 mpw (I don't remember the exact range). I decided to cut one week, so keep at 17 weeks long. Followed the first 5 weeks relatively well. Then went on a few trips and didn't even manage to run half the required mileage for the following 4 weeks (had a week at 0 miles!), including a HM in 1:29 (farily hilly, but still was hoping I would be able to go under 1:26). So when I got back into training, I decided to change my goal marathon from Amsterdam (Oct 21) to Graz (14 Oct) for several reasons (cheaper, no time off needed, and was not very confident at the time of getting a sub3, so a smaller race made sense). This also meant shortening my cycle by 1 week. Had a relatively good 3 weeks of training with over 65 miles and ran a HM in 1:20:45 (PR) in perfect conditions. This gave me hope. Did another 50 mile week and two weeks of taper (40 miles and 18 miles on race week).

            Conditions

            It was sunny and temps were 54F at the start and 64 at the end. However, with the sun the real feel was more like 60 at the start and 70 at the end. Not ideal, but still a huge improvement from Paris and Vienna this year (and even humid Berlin last year).

            Course

            The Graz marathon is run at the same time as the HM, the relay Marathon and the quarter marathon. Most people run the HM (3000 runners), while the FM is a lot less popular (650 runners). The course is two loops around the HM course. The FM starts 10 mins before the HM so we don't run together the whole time. There are 2 out and back sections at kms 3-6 (24-27 too) and 13-15 (34-36).

            Race

            The plan was to cross the halfway point in around 1:28 and then try to control the fade. They had a pacer for 3 hours, but I thought I'd stay ahead of him and use him as reference. Last year he had finished in 3:00:14 so I did not trust him much.

            Kms 0-5: 20:19

            Felt good and fresh, so I went out a bit faster than planned. A good amount of people around my pace at the beginning. Even though I was running about 5 seg/km faster than I had planned, I felt in control.

            Kms 5-10: 20:36

            Still felt quite good and kept the faster pace. I had my first gel at around km 7 (30 mins) and stopped for water afterwards (walked the station). My left calf started to feel a bit tight, but it was definitely manageable and not affecting me.

            Kms 10-15: 21:05

            I still felt good but tried to slow down on this stretch to preserve energy. I was still ahead of pace. At km 14 or so had another gel and the  stopped for some gatorade (the european equivalent) and water, as I thought electrolytes would help with the calf.

            Kms 15-HM: 24:58 (6.1 kms)

            The crowd was a lot thinner now, but we had some HMers with us. At the beginning of this stretch this guy started running right next to me. We kept running together for a while. He said something in german which I didn't understand first, and he didn't speak english, so we communicated with my very primitive german. He was saying it would get lonely after the HM mark as many HMers (and some of the quarter marathoners too) would be done. He was also going for sub3, so we implicitly decided to run together. He was faster than me so he kind of pushed my pace a bit, but I tried to keep it controlled. It was an interesting "negotiation" for the right pace.

            HM-26.1 km: 20:18

            Boy did it get lonely! Right after the right turn when both races separated it was just my friend, myself and another marathoner we had been chasing that were in sight. Nobody else around. Also, when we left the city center core, the support was very very thin, as most people were cheering for half marathoners that had already passed by. This was tough and the rest of the race was lacking a lot in terms of support and other runners. I still felt quite good and my new friend was pushing the pace, so I did my fastest 5k here. Had a gel at km 21 or so.

            KMs 26.1-31.1: 21:08

            After I had my 4th gel at km 27-28, my new friend went ahead a bit and I was left about 50-100 mts behind him. During the 24-27 out and back section, I checked on the 3 hour pacer. I had about 800-900 mts on him, so at the very least 3 mins. This made me happy as I was still feeling good. I also stayed behind my friend and decided to follow my own pace more. I was still ahead pace-wise.

            Kms 31.1-36.1: 22:05

            After hitting km 32 (mile 20), I started to feel a bit of fatigue in my legs and started to slow down. It was by no means the wall, but a slight fade, as you can see from my 5k time. It was also feeling hot as the real feel was definitely above 65F now. At km 33 I saw my DW and both DDs, which was a boost. I went by them to high five them. My friend and the other marathoner we had been chasing were stil in sight though. We were all fading a bit I think. At the out and back section in km 34-36, I checked on the pacer again and I still had a good 800 mts on him, 3 minutes easily. At this point, I realized that unless something bad happened, I'd break 3 hours. So, I decided "not to push too much" to avoid bad things happening (injury, wall).

            Kms 36.1-end: 27:27 (6.1 kms)

            I was still pushing, don't get me wrong, it was still painful and the fade was getting worse. But I was happy because I was much more in control than in my previous 2-3 marathons and I could see that if I didn't do anything stupid, the sub3 was in the bag. It was very interesting and contradictory feeling, but good in the end. At km 39 I saw the family again, and gave them another high five.  A bit after, I saw my friend who was walking. I encouraged him and we continued to run together. We passed the other marathoner who we had been chasing. My last 3-4 kms were the slowest at about 7:15 pace, legs were heavy and it felt hot, real feel was probably close to 70. With 500 mts to go, my friend dropped me as he was feeling better than me. The marathoner we had passed caught up with me and we encouraged each other. As he sprinted, I tried to follow. Bad idea, cramp in the left hammy. Limped for a bit and told him to go ahead. Got back into running form, painfully, and crossed the finish line with a big smile.

            Afterthoughts

            I'm extremely happy with the result and I think the strategy to go for a positive split was the right one. It was a 4 min split with 1:26:58/1:31:01. I would love, though, to be able to run a "fast" negative or even split in the near future.

            I think my nutrition strategy (one gel every 30 mins and drink/walk the first water station after) worked well for me. There may be room for improvement though as I did fade in the end. 

            I found it quite amazing that after having 2 very good cycles and failing at sub3, I was able to achieve it with the worse of my cycles. It says a lot about two things: the cumulative nature of cycles, and how much luck (i.e., weather) weighs on your final time. You have to train hard so that, in case you get lucky, you can achieve your goals, or, in case you are not lucky, next time you're lucky you can.

            What's next? In the short term, rest and in November/December start building base. In the medium term, train for Boston, mybe try to run sub3 (or close) with an even split. In the long term, I don't know. Sub 2:55?

             

            Ok, this was a lot longer than expected. Thanks for reading this far.

            5K - 18:03 (5.18) | 10K - 37:58 (2.18) | HM - 1:20:45 (9.18) | FM: 2:57:59 (10.18)

            Running Problem


            Problem Child

              pesto Not too long. Really good stuff especially mentioning the nutrition plan and walking the first station. I think it is cool you were able to talk to another runner with a little bit of German. I'd never be able to do that. Also the cumulative nature of training plans as I'll keep reminding myself of that.

               

              max Your absence is frequent enough we can joke and you either don't mention it, or don't see it. I'm shocked the course wasn't marked, or didn't contain, Coors Light cans/bottles. I was telling a RB yesterday about downhill marathons and to train for them. It would be his first.

               

              matt sounds like the point is a backup BQ. If you feel daring you could do a 3:20 with the second half at 1:50 pace. Double duties.

               

              rune one more workout then race day. Good luck man. I remember feeling EXACTLY the same way about aiming for 3:15 two years ago. It went well for me however, when I crossed halfway I was literally thinking something along the lines of "here comes the pain" as I knew there wasn't any turning back. My RR WAS EPIC! https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1471874229

               

              dw any advice/experience with racing more than two marathons a year? I figure it's a similar discussion to marathons close together (i.e. how far apart to space races, maximum per year, etc.)

               

              ripped off a fast mile at the end of my first run back yesterday. Two RB decided they wanted to do something faster than 8:30, then while they were going sub 7:45 downhill (they always do this. I always tell them to back off.) they decided to let me catch up...around the time I decided to drop some 7:03 M paced miles since I'm about a mile from the end, and RB#1 did a 5 minute interval at 7:00/mi pace last week. After I passed them, and he catches up he tells me he was going 6:00 pace. I rudely told him he could have just stuck with me and not had to do 6:00 pace. The funny thing was how I got to tell him about the "average pace for the whole run" since he likes to tell me how instant pace is much better than lap pace because his Fenix 3 somehow averages it over 10 seconds just like his Garmin 310.

               

              I need to get back in to TRX and pick a day/time/month to do CIM I mean speed/threshold work. Revel Mt Charleston is appealing due to the massive 24 mile downhill nature of the course, date, and location with family nearby. The 8,000 ft starting line, and potential for snow/cold/30F starting temperatures, is unappealing. Along with marathon training.

               

              EDIT: For those reading max's hiking story the "swamp-boat-looking thingy" is called a dredge. Pretty much sucks up water/sediment, passes it over a screen where the gold drops down and the dirt passes through. liek this.

              Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

              VDOT 53.37 

              5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

              CommanderKeen


              Cobra Commander Keen

                Oregon - Watopia is a virtual island (based on a real island) in Zwift, a biking and run training program. I use that to upload to Strava whenever I run on a treadmill because it will show data from my Stryd that wouldn't be there otherwise when uploading straight from Garmin. I leave that moniker there so I can tell at a glance that it's a treadmill run. 
                Glad things are going well with you.

                 

                Brew - Not sponsoring more people than they get free entries for would certainly save money (short term), but it can be hoped that (longer term) the health benefits of getting some people out and moving will end up lowering our insurance rates. I'm fairly certain the company likes to brag about their "community involvement" with regards to the water stop (that I've never used) and how many people they have running the race.


                Pesto - Enjoyed the RR.


                Just 1.5 more big weeks and I can start to wind thing down just a bit!

                5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

                 

                Upcoming Races:

                 

                 

                JMac11


                RIP Milkman

                   

                  What's next?

                   

                  Come join us over in the dark side (Sub 3 forum)

                  5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                   

                   

                  rlk_117


                  Resident Millennial

                    max- I know of one "famous" person who did show up. His name is Mark, but he goes by Max.

                     

                    cal- aw shucks, kind words! thanks. yeah, have had good training so far, we shall see. good luck at clarksburg! I am sure you will be able to find plenty of women in blue singlets running 80-90min there. your training may be short so far, but you just went out for a 26mi jog, so something tells me you will be fine Smile

                     

                    matt- "Better than a car." be still my heart! Indeed.

                     

                    FB- Maybe you are misremembering the story (I'm not sure if I ever told it to the group in detail?), but that's misguided advice towards a sore subject. :|

                    Anyway, hooray for sharing vehicles! Space is valuable.

                     

                    pesto- good advice, and thank you! yes, I agree with this " I often tend to be more aggressive with HM goals than with FM, as a miscalculation is not as painful."

                    your RR is long so I will read it after work Smile but thanks for sharing it!

                    _________________________________________________
                    mile, 5:26 /5k, 19:34 /10k, 41:00 /13.1, 1:31:49 /26.2, 3:12:58


                    Strict WTF adherent

                      Max - that's taking bad ideas to another level.

                       

                      If anyone is looking for a fast race on the east coast, the Bucks County marathon (where RLK earned her suburbanite cred) got moved to a friendlier course. Double out-and-back that's completely flat and in the shade. Weather usually is perfect. No spectators to mock you.

                      rlk_117


                      Resident Millennial

                        mcB- aw shucks, all the nostalgia! is it on the canal path?

                        _________________________________________________
                        mile, 5:26 /5k, 19:34 /10k, 41:00 /13.1, 1:31:49 /26.2, 3:12:58

                        darkwave


                        Mother of Cats

                           

                           

                          dw any advice/experience with racing more than two marathons a year? I figure it's a similar discussion to marathons close together (i.e. how far apart to space races, maximum per year, etc.)

                           

                          Hmm...that is what I'm doing now - Boston, Grandma's, hopefully CIM.

                           

                          Honestly, I don't have any particular thoughts about racing more than two marathons in a calendar year - I think it's a non-issue that appears to exist based on our calendar year.   The same way that we get wrapped up in weekly mileage, when that may not be the best measure of our workload, since our weekly mileage can vary dramatically if a long run is moved from Sunday to Monday, etc..

                           

                          I'm more focused on not running marathons too closely together.  And if you do run two marathons close together, then it's important to take some extra down time before the next, to make sure you've rid yourself of cumulative fatigue over the cycles.

                           

                          As an example, I did Boston and Grandmas in April and June, and now am training for a third marathon.  That third marathon could have been:

                           

                          1) Chicago (October 2018)

                          2) CIM (December 2018)

                          3) Houston (January 2019)

                           

                          Options 1 and 2 are both in 2018, and so break the "no more than 2 marathons in a year" rule, while Houston does not.

                           

                          At the same time, I'd argue that options 2 and 3 are more similar to each other than to option 1.  And while tacking on Chicago after doing both Grandmas and Boston would have been risky, doing CIM isn't any more of a risk than doing Houston, even if one is in the same calendar year as the first two races, while the other is not.

                           

                          Pesto - enjoyed the report.   Interesting thoughts about positive splitting versus going for a negative.  As you know, I like a negative split, but I also think different runners are different.  The more experienced the runner, the more comfortable I am with them planning for a fade (though I still think it's risky).

                           

                          I guess positive and negative split strategies are both risky, just in different ways.  I prefer to gamble on making time up at the end; many others don't.

                           

                          13 miles for me today.  3 mile warm-up (9:25) and then a relaxed 5x1200 in 4:37, 4:35, 4:32, 4:31, 4:35 with 3:30 recoveries.  (the last was slow because the wind really picked up - effort was the same).   4.5 cooldown (9:04).  Also injury-prevention and leg strengthwork and recovery swimming.

                          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                           

                          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                          mattw4jc


                             

                            Options 1 and 2 are both in 2018, and so break the "no more than 2 marathons in a year" rule, while Houston does not.

                             

                             

                            I prefer to look at the time span more than the calendar year. Even Houston would be 3 fulls - and full training cycles - in less than 12 months.

                             

                            I don't train and race nearly as much as many folks do. Life, motivation, whatever. I do think I'm missing out on any cumulative benefits too though. My PB from 3 years ago seems quite far out of reach these days.


                            Strict WTF adherent

                              RLK - That's the spot.

                               

                              For the group's consideration... I think I already know the answer.

                              I have a half marathon on 11/3.

                              I have not run more than seven miles at a shot since screwing up my hamstring in mid-July, with no recent runs of more than five miles. My overall volume has been minimal as well.

                              I have been able to build up my mileage in the past two weeks, but am moving cautiously in hopes of avoiding re-injury.

                              I have zero intentions to race, but feel I could jog the whole thing without too much trouble.

                               

                              Do I:

                              -Continue with my recent buildup, which would have me topping out at less than 10 miles (minimize risk of training injury).

                              -Same as above, but be ready to DNS.

                              -Try to squeeze in one or two 10-12 mile runs before then (increase risk of training injury, with minimal adaptation, but maybe get a little more confidence).

                              -Take up sumo wrestling.

                                McB -

                                 

                                If you're north of 200lbs, go for sumo.  

                                If south, skip the 1/2M and continue a sensible mileage buildup and rehab.

                                 

                                (If you decide to jog it for fun, there is some risk that the race excitement entices you to overdo it...)