2018 3:20 (and beyond) (Read 582 times)

CommanderKeen


Cobra Commander Keen

    Ace, Brew, Pesto - How have your new little ones been doing?

     

    I haven't been running, or keeping up with anything running related for long enough to comment much here. No insight in to changes in numbers of super-fast people, and not much more into the best training for myself.

    I like and seem to respond well to LT stuff, but other than that I don't have much of a clue. I'm sure I'll learn more down the road, and as I do more in the way of properly structured training.


    Super plus, I found out a couple days ago that my employer is sponsoring my entry into the local spring race. This will make the 3rd year I've run one of these races and the 3rd without having to pay for it myself.


    School has been out all week so far, and tomorrow as well, due to the teacher walkout/strike/whatever you want to call it in Oklahoma. DW has still been going to work since she teaches at a private preschool, but DD1 has been staying home all week. Interesting times. The lack of traffic around town due to no one being at the schools has been nice, though!

    5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

     

    Upcoming Races:

     

     

    runethechamp


      My old track coach from High School said just that, your speed depends a LOT on your ankles. I'm also a firm believer that a lot of the success of the east african distance runners (in addition to genetics and the fact that they train at 8000 feet year round) can be contributed to developing that ankle strength from when they first start walking and running around. Same probably goes for the Tarahumara tribe and their whole story. Maybe I should dig out the good old 5x60 all out with full recovery workout that I came across on letsrun for my base building period...

       

       

      I've noticed a dramatic change in last two years (I'm 54). What I'm learning is that I need focused strength and mobility work for my ankles/calves -- older runners lose power there quickly -- and, related but not quite the same, distance runners must sprint (as in all-out, waaay faster than mile pace).

       

      5k: 20:32 (1/17)  |  HM: 1:34:37 (2/18)  |  FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)

       

      Getting back into it

      Jim E


        Hi all, Been whizzing through the last few pages. A couple of nice marathon PRs there from Ace and Rune. Well done.
        rlk's running track now? That was a nice mile time though.

         

        I've been in maintenance mode, with some XT thrown in. Spinning, and two trail runs per week thanks to TRB.

        darkwave


        Mother of Cats

          Jim!  Good to see you! (virtually).

           

          Flexible ankles.  Interesting.  I have very long achilles tendons (horse-riding will do that to you) and I always thought they were detrimental to my running - less tightness there means less spring.

           

          I also have issues with lax ligaments and hypermobitlity in my ankles, and I can assure you that is not beneficial to running.  Tight ligaments are key for stability, both for the obvious reason and for one less obvious: tension on ligaments provides feedback to your central nervous system and is a cue for balance and stabilization.  If your ligaments are too loose, then your ability to balance suffers - injury results.

           

          8.5 miles today (8:59) plus drills and strides.  Then upper body weights/core and DIY yoga.

          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

           

          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

             I've also noticed a dramatic change.  Menopause hit me like a ton of bricks.  Trying to come back from the stress fracture (which was partly due to menopausal changes in bone density) has been a very long process and I've mostly come to terms with the unhappy truth that I will never be as strong or as fast as I was five years ago.

             

            But, but .. you are soooooooooooooooo much older than me!!!

             

            OMR ~ Before I forget, good luck (Friday, right?).

             

            I created a workout ... a hill medley: 4 sets of 3 min @ 4% @ 10K effort, 90 secs @ 6% @ 4K effort, 30 secs @7% @ mile effort w/ 2 min recoveries. A nice blend of paces and very manageable.

            seattlemax


            Duke Of Bad Judgment

              Driving by for some advice and maybe consolation...

               

              So I'm supposed to do That Race in 12 days.  A couple weeks ago my hamstring tendon went bad.  I had that 4 years ago too and it wrecked my running for 2 weeks to 2 months depending upon how you count.  "This time will be different" I hoped.  Except after two weeks it's probably not.  So here are my choices:

              1) Skip That Race and put the running energy into rehab so that I will be stronger when I return.

              2) Power walk the entire 26.2 miles of That Race  to keep my 8-going-on-9-year streak alive - starting in corral 2 I think I can finish before the cutoff.  Those of you who know me will understand the irresistible appeal of doing something this perverse.  The main argument against this is that my PT says it will set me back, and I have some hard races later this summer that I actually care about.

               

              I've pretty much decided on option 1 but I wanted to give the peanut gallery an opportunity to influence me.  I don't really care about the streak - I was hoping to get that "congratulations, you can sign up early" email after 10 years but planned to stop running That Race every year because there are other races I want to do in April.  Fun ones, with trippy things in the trail and decent mile value for your entry fee, unlike That Sprint Race where it's over after just a few hours.

               

              For those of you who want TMI, it would be convenient to chalk this up to overuse/overtraining but it's not clear that's what happened.  When my PT checked me out a couple days ago, he found something interesting.  It's probably the semitendinosus tendon that is cranky.  But the hamstring next to it - the biceps femoris - is totally atrophied.  The working theory is that the semitendinosus is overworking trying to compensate for the crappy biceps femoris.  So overuse on the surface, but not really.  No clue why the atrophy happened - recent, longstanding?   If this were several years ago, I'd probably get some imaging so we could see what's happening a little better, but getting value from health insurance $ is so 1990's and that's not going to happen.  In the meantime I am spending hours (literally) each day beating the heck out of all my lower body muscles.  And channeling Darkwave in the pool.  I even swam yesterday trying to do a little more than channel my inner manatee.

               

              Hi to all.

              fb-guy


                Will catch up with everyone later, but wanted to throw this in.

                 

                Isn't there the theory (or maybe real analysis) that you will set your lifetime PR in the marathon 8-10 years after you start -- no matter what age you start running seriously? You can start at 60 and peak at 68. I started at 48 and peaked at 5 1/2 years, and really thought I could go lower for a few years after that.

                 

                If that's true, then it means that your sell-by date isn't based on age, but rather on combination of how quickly you are pushing performance upward (miles, quality, strength, etc.) vs. how quickly nature is driving your performance down (decrepitude).

                 

                Also, haven't I read that the performance fall-off in later life is a pretty gently decline, with no falling off a cliff? On average, we are supposed to "fade", not "crash"? I think that theory is supported by statistics.


                At least that's what I'm hoping.

                m: 2:55:04 | 10k: 37:14 | 50mile: 9:35

                darkwave


                Mother of Cats

                  Smax - if you like option 1, then go with option 1.  The streak only matters because you care about it. If you care about other things more, then there you go....

                   

                  Pool-running and hamstring issues - I'd be a bit careful here, as pool-running can be pretty tough on the upper leg muscles (all that moving against the increased resistance of water).   In someways more stressful than land-running.  When I tore my hammy, I had to skip pool-running for a period.

                   

                  As for swimming, I'm assuming (based on the manatee comment) that you're at a basic level - can get back and forth across the pool without fear or drowning, but not much more than that.

                   

                  If so, I recommend doing Slowtwitch's "Guppy Challenge."  (go here and start with "week 1").  The Guppy Challenge is a do it yourself at home  "fix your swim" program for adult onset swimmers.  I know you probably don't care that much about your swim, but doing the Guppy Challenge is a lot more fun and stimulating than just cranking out laps, and I found that having it to work on (and seeing progress each week) really helped stave off the depression that stemmed from not being able to run, race, or do much else.

                   

                  Training, aging, and "the cliff."  My sense is that generally it's a slow decline, rather than a cliff.  But external factors can interfere, including menopause for women (and that is a real cliff for many), or injuries.  If you are slowly declining, and then have to take off time for an injury, it may be quite hard to come back, resulting in an apparent cliff.

                  Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                   

                  And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                  AceHarris


                    max: I'm a sucker for streaks, but it sounds like option 1 is the right choice. Sorry this problem isn't improving as fast as you'd hoped. Did the PT have any theories on why the biceps femoris wasn't being used? Do they think that a previous hamstring injury and recovery may have caused the atrophy and the adjacent muscles compensated? You've piqued my curiosity. I hope you recover well and soon.

                    Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 17:09 (2021), 10k: 35:54 (2021), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:53:18 (2021)

                    Pesto


                      max - sounds like option 1 is the way to go. Sorry none of us is trying to convince you otherwise! Hope recovery goes well.

                       

                      CK - the new one's doing well! She's sleeping fairly well, only waking up once or twice every night. She seems very sensitive to gas, so she cries quite a bit, but at night she handles it quite well (despite the odd night) Smile How's yours?

                       

                      Had my last run today, no more running for me until Sunday. By the way, it seems like it will rain on race day/morning. Quite annoyed with that 

                       

                      Before I go, good luck fb and anyone else racing this weekend!

                      5K - 18:03 (5.18) | 10K - 37:58 (2.18) | HM - 1:20:45 (9.18) | FM: 2:57:59 (10.18)

                      mattw4jc


                        Will catch up with everyone later, but wanted to throw this in.

                         

                        Isn't there the theory (or maybe real analysis) that you will set your lifetime PR in the marathon 8-10 years after you start -- no matter what age you start running seriously? You can start at 60 and peak at 68. I started at 48 and peaked at 5 1/2 years, and really thought I could go lower for a few years after that.

                         

                        If that's true, then it means that your sell-by date isn't based on age, but rather on combination of how quickly you are pushing performance upward (miles, quality, strength, etc.) vs. how quickly nature is driving your performance down (decrepitude).

                         

                        Also, haven't I read that the performance fall-off in later life is a pretty gently decline, with no falling off a cliff? On average, we are supposed to "fade", not "crash"? I think that theory is supported by statistics.


                        At least that's what I'm hoping.

                         

                        Ack! That's a thing? I started running regularly in spring of 2008 and hit my half marathon and marathon PRs in the fall of 2015 (so 7 1/2 years). I've struggled with getting close to those since then. I'm sure it is somewhat a lack of motivation. I feel like I should and could be able to get there again, but haven't felt the desire. That year (2015) was a lot of work, and I just haven't wanted to put that in again. Maybe I can summon up a desire by wanting to be an exception to the theory.

                          SMax ~ Option 1. Shouldn't be a debate, except we're all a bit stoopid.

                           

                          fb ~ The start + 8-10 years is generally true for adult-onset runners. But I think the data does suggest a more sudden decline than a gentle fade.

                           

                          Here's a look at US Master's Indoor 3000m records:

                          40 - 7:37

                          45 - 8:39

                          50 - 8:43

                          55 - 9:10

                          60 - 9:48

                          65 - 10:29

                           

                          You like to play w/ numbers, is that a straight line fade or more of a stair-step decline?


                          Speed Surplus

                            "Those of you who know me will understand the irresistible appeal of doing something this perverse."

                             

                            I, too, find this irresistibly appealing, for reasons I cannot explain.

                             

                            So I have a hard time recommending the other option. I suppose it's time to ask the doc, 'But HOW MUCH will it set me back?"

                            5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12

                            Katia77


                              Flexible ankles.  Interesting.  I have very long achilles tendons (horse-riding will do that to you) and I always thought they were detrimental to my running - less tightness there means less spring.

                               

                              I also have issues with lax ligaments and hypermobitlity in my ankles, and I can assure you that is not beneficial to running.  Tight ligaments are key for stability, both for the obvious reason and for one less obvious: tension on ligaments provides feedback to your central nervous system and is a cue for balance and stabilization.  If your ligaments are too loose, then your ability to balance suffers - injury results.

                               

                               

                              Talk of achilles/ankle ligaments is interesting, and something to think about. I have pretty short Achilles tendons, I assume mostly because I spend a lot of time in 4-5 inch heels. I more or less refuse to give this up, but have put a moratorium on the 5 inchers until Botswana.  I can't imagine my forefoot striking helps.

                               

                              I also have issues with lax ligaments in my ankles.. I did a fair amount of damage in my gymnastics days, including a subluxation  in 2003ish that left my ligaments pretty stretched and I never really recovered from. Instead, I just taped my ankle for the remainder of my gymnastics career (I didn't retire until 2008, so that's a lot of tape).  I've rolled that ankle a fair amount while running, as can be expected, and suspect the muscles around it have overcompensated.

                               

                              Smax - sorry to hear it's not improving as you'd hoped.  Do what you think is best (obviously) - I've never been able to keep streaks alive, but as mentioned, it only matters because it matters to you. If you care about other races more, you may want to focus your energy there.

                              PRs: HM: 1:32:59 (2015); FM: 3:18:36 (2017)

                              Jim E


                                Max - Another vote for option 1 here, but you are leaning that way anyway, right? My golden rule: Get better, then see where you are. Overuse injuries never seem to be all that clear-cut, but yours is interesting. Maybe you were just not engaging that muscle. Sometimes there are drills to fix that.

                                 

                                FB - Yes, the slow decline due to age tends to get masked by more dramatic effects, for instance the newbie improvement curve. That 8-10 years thing is approximate, but I PRd at all the major distances 10 years after starting, so there's something in it.

                                As for age-related decline, some of my age-group rivals and those in the AGs above mine have slowed down dramatically. (I'm 62) Often it's because they get injured more, or for longer, and have to cut back on their running. This is making me cautious. If I can stay healthy, I can maybe cruise to AG success rather than try to sweat it. Napa was an example of that, I had a crappy race and still placed while a couple of my rivals blew up. Plus having to stop running would suck.