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Advice on a running shoe for flatfeet... (Read 2445 times)

flatfootruns


    severe overpronator...full custom orthodic around 155>160 lbs...25>30 miles a week...thanks a lot...


    Blue Moon Hater

      severe overpronator...full custom orthodic around 155>160 lbs...25>30 miles a week...thanks a lot...

       

      I have custom orthotics, and I am roughly the same weight.  I can't really remember which way a pronator rolls, but I do about double the mileage, and I'm happy with my Asics (sorry Thunder) 2160s.  I've been with that series for a long, long time.

      There was a point in my life when I ran. Now, I just run.

       

      Well, fuckers

      He still stands

       

      The Diary of a Once-ran.

        severe overpronator...full custom orthodic around 155>160 lbs...

        Those are some heavy-ass orthotics.

         

        I have flat feet but don't over-pronate.  Assuming your orthotics put your feet in a neutral position the same way as my aftermarket insoles support my arches ... do you need the additional support of a stability or motion-control shoe?  I'm having good luck just putting my supportive insoles into neutral shoes (e.g. New Balance 890, Brooks Glycerin).

        “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman


        Spring- wishful thinking

          I've had custom orthotics for several years now, and am maybe 15 lbs lighter but have a pretty significant structural issue with my arch angle.  Went from Brooks Andrenaline to  Asics 21XX series, to Mizuno Wave Inspire, now to Brooks ghost.  I only switched shoes because what ever tweaks the shoe makers did to that version did not make my feet happy. 

           

          You shouldn't need anything other than neutral shoes when you have an orthotic at least in theory.  The biggest change that help me was switching foot docs from a general podiatrist to one who treated athletes.  She switched out my vinyl covered 3/4 length graphite orthotics with full length orthitics covered with a material that more closely resembles what you get in the default inserts of running shoes.  That added just a little bit more cushion and prevented them from slipping.  She also spent significantly more time observing foot pronation, knee alignment, etc. to ensure the inserts were doing what they are supposed to do.

            severe overpronator...full custom orthodic around 155>160 lbs...25>30 miles a week...thanks a lot...

            Your is severely lacking information.  Being flat footed is not necessarily a bad thing.  Severe over-pronation can be a bad thing but that could be caused by a number of factors.  Being a flat-footed or being an over-pronator is merely a end-result of something.  You need to first identify (1) is your being flat-footed causing a problem; (2) is your over-pronation caused by your being flat-footed; (3) is your over-pronating causing a problem???

             

            You are usually flat-footed due to 2 reasons; (1) structural reason; or (2) weak arch.  Sometimes, very rare, you develop muscles around your arch so much that it appears to be flat-footed.  Usually flat-foot fits well in a straight last shoes.  When you think about your foot as a loop (actually a half a loop), you'll have heel, outside the ball of the foot=base of your pinky toe, and the base of the big toe.  These are 3 main points that connects to create this half loop.  That's where the weight is taken out.  As you land outside the foot, either heel or the base of the pinky toe, as your foot rolls inward (natural pronation), the ends of this arch, heel and base of the big toe, will act as a spring to hold this roll.  Think of this this way; you cut an onion in a quarter; take 3 or 4 outer layers and put it on a cutting board.  So one side of this cut side is flat on the board.  You put a finger on the top of the arch and try to press it down gently.  This "arch" will resist your pressure.  That's what your arch does.  But if there's no arch and if it's all filled up, it'll be easier to "roll".  This is why flat-footed people tend to over-pronate.  Now, if I understand this correctly, Bill Bowerman was the guy who came up with straight last shoes to prevent over-pronation (besides NB being more straight to begin with).  His idea was basically, if you fill up the arch area of the shoe, then that will prevent foot from rolling inward.  This is what all the devices on the medial side of the shoe, including, they had this years ago with that French athletic company, external arch support.  That makes sense and some of Nike shoes in the 1980s reflects this concept well (like the ones Seb Coe used to wear).  But that's slightly different from just simple straight last.  

             

            Now, I mentioned SOME possible causes of flat-foot which COULD be a cause of over-pronation.  Personally, without fully understanding flat-foot, it's not wise to prescribe the solution for it.  When you have some rottening foods in the fridge, you can do one of 2 things.  You can place a box of baking powder (or is it baking soda?) in there so it'll absorb order.  That's a kind of a masking solution.  Have you seen one of those stupid Febreze commercials?  Those guys with blindfold brought into un-Godly dirty kitchen but, because of wonderful scent of Febreze, they can't smell any of the bad smell, thinking they are in some wonderful wonderland...  That's pretty much what it does--masking.  And that's what $120 stability shoes and $200 plastic orthotics would do; masking.  It certainly COULD be a solution.  But, suppose you have weak arches; what's gonna happen if you continue to support it?  Have you seen one of those birth certificate thingie with new-born baby's foot print?  When babies are born, usually their feet are flat-footed.  It's because they are not quite to the point where arches are well-developed.  As they start to walk, their arches would develop.  If you put their feet in thick, bulky, inflexible shoes (which unfortunately most baby shoes are) cast-like shoes, the development of their arch would delay. If they never walk, or if their feet are continuously restricted in those inflexible shoes, they arch may never develop.  So, if you have weak arches, and you keep supporting them, they are more likely to get weaker and weaker.  Or, you can do it another way; you have some rottening food in the fridge, you can just remove the cause of this bad smell.  Case closed.  The whole idea behind Nike coming up with Free, after years and years and years of developing ways to restrict foot movement further and further and millions and millions of research budget put into developing more "stability" shoes, they decided that STRENGTHENING your feet may be the way to go about....

             

            Of course, there's no short cut to it; there's no easy solution.  It'll involve some work, perhaps a half an hour everyday, getting wet towel out, picking up PET bottle caps up with your toes, walking or jogging around grassy field barefoot...  Of course, you can't just jump into barefoot running because you'll more likely to get hurt....  So it'll take some time, it'll involve some "work"...  It's much easier to just throw a simple question at internet message board and pick up a pair of shoes. ;o)


            Spring- wishful thinking

              Nobby, I totally agree about the masking the problem in the event of weak muscles/form issue, but if someone has a structural limitation with arch angle, e.g. significantly low arch because of bone structure, are you suggesting that they should be able to run without stability shoes or orthotics?  The reason why I ask is that I have always thought that the arch performed an impact absorption/rebound function and that no amount of muscle strengthening can make up for a bone structure deficiency.  Just curious if that in your experience you have ever known of athletes that were not able to run without orthotics because of structural limitations. 

               

              MTA - Just to clarify by significant structural limitation I would say <12 degree angle where >20 is defined as normal.

                Nobby, I totally agree about the masking the problem in the event of weak muscles/form issue, but if someone has a structural limitation with arch angle, e.g. significantly low arch because of bone structure, are you suggesting that they should be able to run without stability shoes or orthotics?  The reason why I ask is that I have always thought that the arch performed an impact absorption/rebound function and that no amount of muscle strengthening can make up for a bone structure deficiency.  Just curious if that in your experience you have ever known of athletes that were not able to run without orthotics because of structural limitations. 

                 

                MTA - Just to clarify by significant structural limitation I would say <12 degree angle where >20 is defined as normal.

                Like I said, there are cases that STRUCTURE determines the "flatness" of your foot.  Your form also could cause issues whether or not you have flat foot.  I don't know the degree that determines whether or not you are classified as flat foot or not.  But the bigger question is; does it cause a problem?  If it doesn't why bother?  If it does cause an issue, most probably from over-pronation, then you'll have to determine if it's really being caused from flat-foot or something else.  

                 

                I have a good friend who had too high of arches that he had to wear orthotics (soft rubber ones) or he's pronate.  He still pronated quite a bit and I have some pictures of him with his feet really twisted around.  He ran 5k in 13:12 though.

                  Came across this.  Just wanted to share this with all the flat-footed runners.  This is the footprint of Sammy Wanjiru:

                   

                   

                  Compare this with footprint of Haile Geb:

                   

                    Geb only has four toes!

                      Geb only has four toes!

                       Looks like you found the secret to running like Geb -  off with a toe.

                       

                      What's the use of that little one anyway, just causes blisters and other troubles.


                      HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                         Looks like you found the secret to running like Geb -  off with a toe.

                         

                         

                         

                        Heaven knows the main thing is to run more like Geb and less like Sammy.

                        It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

                          Heaven knows the main thing is to run more like Geb and less like Sammy.

                           

                          You're killing me with your jokes.

                          nextyearcubs


                            I can relate to your situation... I have very flat feet myself and have had a few flare ups of what the doc called distal plantar fasciitis.  I was very sore behind the big toe, and the bones in my foot felt like they were falling apart as I ran.  I was prescribed custom orthotics, but they hurt while I ran, so I use them in my everyday shoes, and use superfeet blue inserts in my running shoes.  They're thin, so I just put them right over the insoles that come with the shoes.

                             

                            I wore Brooks Beast for a long time, but I eventually switched to Mizuno Wave Alchemy.  I've worn the last three versions of that shoe, and they've all been pretty good.

                             

                            Last spring I had another flare up of PF, but I was able to see it coming, and treated it with rest, stretching, ice, etc.  It was right before a marathon though, so I went out and bought another pair of Beasts, figuring they'd help support the injured foot just a little more.  I don't know how much a difference it made, but I finished the marathon with a PR.  The foot bothered me the whole time, but it never really got any worse during the race.

                             

                            After the second episode, once I was pain free I decided to try to strengthen the arch.  I read a few books, and talked to friends who've run barefoot.  I started slowly running a lap every week after a speed workout.  It took all summer to get up to a mile, my form was decent (according to people who watched at the track), but my ankles just weren't strong enough, and they'd get sore.  But no hurries though.

                             

                            I think for me it was, I run in some of the most supportive shoes out there, so to go from that to nothing is a big adjustment.  But it can be done if you're not in any kind of hurry, like Nobby said.

                             

                            I eventually bought some vibrams and can do about three miles a few times a week now, I enjoy running barefoot, and can do it pain free, but I don't want to ramp up too quickly.  I look at it as a workout more than a way of life, but I wouldn't mind doing about half my running barefoot.  Maybe it would save me some money on shoes at the very least.

                            5K 20:20 9/17/11 13.1 1:36:58 6/12/11 26.2 3:34:19 9/23/2012