Forums >General Running>Winter Base Building
Looking for some advice on base building through the winter
Ran a half in April with almost no focused training in 1:41x it was rough, I felt terrible for the entire second half of the run, and fought back dry heaves for the last mile. I started a training plan right after that race and trained for the whole summer (Lydiard training) and ran my goal half marathon this past weekend. Dramatic difference, ran a 1:38x solid pacing, felt super strong through most of the race, never felt out of control, but I did have to stop a half mile from the finish to throw up!! argh. Overall, I was really pleased with the results from the weekend.
My goal for the winter is to base build so that I can start a marathon plan next spring (fall marathon with the goal of 3:25 - BQ!) I know mostly what to do. I run typically five to six days per week and strength train four days per week. I foam roll and stretch at least once every day. I plan to do mostly aerobic running, a tempo run every week and a long run on the weekends. I want to start working on my finish so plan to do fast finish long runs twice a month and maybe start racing once a month since I seem to get really worked up and nervous about racing and feel like just racing more often will settle me down a bit.
My biggest issue is that I have been running for about seven years now (most of which is open and logged on this site) and my "easy pace" has stayed almost the same. I started running the classic ten minute or so mile... and now my easy pace is around a nine minute mile, my long run pace is a bit slower (I run with a friend, I could probably run them a bit faster but she is a slower runner) maybe 9:20 miles. A friend who has been running her whole life was pacing me through my half marathon over the weekend and she was really recommending that I start to work on making my easy pace miles faster, so just taking one of my aerobic runs a week and instead of just running easy, consciously working the pace down ten seconds or so per mile. I run my tempo runs typically around a 7:45 mile. I almost never run anything in the 8 minute per mile range.
I want a BQ marathon next fall. It's been a goal of mine since I started running. I have BQ once in the past but wasn't able to register for Boston that year because of finances. I want to set myself up for the best possible training next spring and want to capitalize on the winter running coming up. Any thoughts or suggestions? My log is open. I want to stay around 50 miles per week this winter but am open to the thought of running even more. Basically, I want to become a better runner. I don't want this winter to become aimless running.
RIP Milkman
I'm sure others will chime in, but I disagree a bit with your approach. First, winter base building is just that: building a base. It seems like you're trying to build a base and also do things that normally don't come with base building, e.g. running races and fast finish long runs. At most, you should run just a tempo run and that's it for your speed. The goal of base building is LOTS of easy miles (think 90%+ if not 100% per week). I personally don't run any tempo runs during base building, but I understand the argument for slipping them in maybe once every other week to make sure you still have something at a faster pace. However, there is absolutely no need for fast finish long runs or races until you get out of base building.
Finally, don't get discouraged about your easy pace. You will find most people's easy paces don't improve. I ran a half 3 years ago at 1:31 and my easy pace was 7:45. I just ran a 1:20 this spring, and my easy pace was ... 7:45. There are a lot of reasons for this, but mainly it's because a) you were probably running easy runs too fast when you started, b) you're running more mileage now, c) easy run pace doesn't matter! I would not listen to your friend regarding easy pace running, it's really bad advice (sorry!). Based on your half time, anything in the 9 to 9:30 range is absolutely perfect. 8:00 is marathon pace work, so you should only focus on that during your marathon build up. Her idea of doing a run speeding up 10 seconds per mile is a great training run called a progression run, but they are difficult and should not be considered as part of your easy run regimen.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Oh, also wanted to add one more thing. Tempo runs are defined a lot of different ways, but if you're defining them in the traditional sense as a run at your lactate threshold pace, 7:45 is too slow. Based on a 1:38 half, you should be running them at 7:15. But I assume you will update that pace with your shiny new PR
I'm no expert but agree with everything JMac said.
Just a couple additional data points FWIW:
- In the last 5 years, I have improved my half time by 26 min and my marathon by 48 min, and my easy pace is now about 30 sec/mile slower.
- In the spring I ran a 1:35 half followed by a 3:28 marathon. And I have been doing marathon training cycles peaking at 70mpw for the last 2-3 yrs. Everyone's race prediction formula is different, but turning a 1:38 into a 3:25 will be no easy task.
Dave
Pace Prophet
I also agree with JMac.
I don't think the issue is going to be "turning a 1:38 half into a 3:25 marathon" because as you improve, your half time will improve also. I also strongly agree that you need to run faster tempos (I run mine around half pace, not half-to-10k pace, but I run generally longer tempos) and strongly agree that your easy pace is fine. When I ran my PR half and marathon, my easy pace was in the 8:50-9:20 range.
For base-building I'd recommend mostly easy running, but do include strides and perhaps hill sprints if you have a place to do them.
My easy pace when I ran a 1:48 HM is almost identical to what it is now (with a 1:37 HM). Your easy runs Should be easy. I honestly think a lot of people run their easy runs way too fast and that is part of the reason they end up getting injured. You need to keep the hard days hard, and the easy days easy in order to recover.
Prince of Fatness
Don't over complicate it. Run the winter mostly easy. Throw in strides, fartleks, some hill work, trails if you're into that, enough to add some variety. You get a nice day and you feel good go out and push it a little. It won't hurt anything.
As for easy pace back when I ran more I'd look at people who had similar PR's and there was up to a 30 second per mile difference in easy pace. Hell, even my own easy pace varied quite a bit from day to day (weather, lack of sleep, etc.). Don't worry about the number. The only thing that I ever cared about was that I didn't run my easy days too hard as to not be able to complete my workouts.
Not at it at all.
I don't think the issue is going to be "turning a 1:38 half into a 3:25 marathon" because as you improve, your half time will improve also.
For me, turning a 1:38 half into a 1:35 half was no easy task either. As you may recall.
Anyway of course you are the queen of marathon time predictions, and that is a whole other topic. But still pretty relevant to the OP.
Thanks for the input. I'm reading it all and thinking things over. I realize i am quite confused about what a tempo run is supposed to be. I have been using a Lydiard training plan off and on for several years and the tempo run is always slightly slower than race pace...now multiple people (you guys and my girlfriend that i ran with over the weekend) are all agreeing that a tempo run should be faster than race pace. maybe that is the base of my problem, just running my tempos way to slow. I agree that i want my easy days easy, especially since i have dealt with some injuries off and on, a hamstring thing, a minor groin....just little things but i never used to deal with things like that before. so maybe focus on overall mileage more this winter and less on pace?? is 50 miles a week then not really enough?
For me, turning a 1:38 half into a 1:35 half was no easy task either. As you may recall. Anyway of course you are the queen of marathon time predictions, and that is a whole other topic. But still pretty relevant to the OP.
True that! But focused training and (more importantly) more miles can make a big difference, especially if it's a new stimulus. Higher mileage and appropriately-paced speedwork may do the job for this OP.
Though I ran sub-3:25 off a 1:36 half, I'm an old lady with a lot of endurance, and I think most runners would want 1:34 or less to target that goal, particularly if the true goal is a functional BQ.
"Tempo" has a lot of definitions. The classic tempo is 1-hour race pace, which for most people falls somewhere between 10k and half pace. I like to run my tempos at HMP, as I said earlier.
Raw mileage is king for the marathon. My PR came from an average of 62mpw and peak weeks of 68. A solid 50mpw over the winter will set you up for a higher-mileage training cycle for the marathon.
Basically, I want to become a better runner. I don't want this winter to become aimless running.
I have a different idea. Why not complete a short training cycle culminating in a 5K or 10K race. Most any plan will do, but make sure you maintain a standard longish run of 12-15 miles every week or every two weeks. The goal will be to attempt to be consistent about doing the mileage (40-55 for instance), speed workouts (tempos and intervals), hills and whatnot every week and not get injured. IMO this would be better than running say 70MPW easy. You will have plenty of time to peak for a 10K this year and then start focused training for a marathon next year.
"Shut up Legs!" Jens Voigt
an amazing likeness
Your stated goal was pretty clear -- "My goal for the winter is to base build so that I can start a marathon plan next spring".
To me, that says miles count more than pace, or structure, or workouts.
Most marathon training plans have phases -- they build miles, then they build speed (while holding onto miles), then they add some stretch long runs. You go through the plan hoping you can ride the edge of pushing distance/time/pace and recovery without getting hurt. Holding onto base miles, or growing them, over the winter gets you into that early phase of your structured plan already hardened to the base miles needed -- you get to the speed/strength less stressed, more ready to consume it.
Blah...blah...blah...tl;dr
Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard. Run a race every now and then to spice things up. Don't get hurt on snow, ice or dark roads.
Acceptable at a dance, invaluable in a shipwreck.
As ilanarama stated, the definition of a tempo run can vary based on the distance you are running. A classic tempo run is 20 minutes at LT pace, which for you as stated is around 7:15. However, you can also run cruise intervals, e.g. 3x2 miles at LT pace with 2 minute breaks. For HM training, I really like alternating 6x1 mile with 1 minute breaks and 3x2 miles with 2 minute breaks, sprinkling in a true 20 minute tempo here and there.
Some people run long "tempos" which are slower than this pace. Jack Daniels has a good conversion chart that slows down to your tempo for distance. For example, a 20 minute tempo is 7:15, but a 60 minute tempo run would be 7:45.
In terms of mileage, "enough" is totally personal! If you are running let's say 50mpw in December but feel like you could go higher, bump it up to 55 for January and 60 for February. The key with base building is to run as much as you can at easy pace without driving yourself crazy from boredom.
Sorry, MilkTruck...not sure how to quote the correct way.
So, you're right. My main goal this winter is base building so I can marathon train in the spring. so what does that look like? Easy running 6 days per week? mixing in a fartlek or tempo every couple of weeks? Long run on the weekends? I am kind of a rule follower, I like training plans cause they tell me what to do.
JMac you also mentioned just running easy 90% of the time, I guess it just sounds kind of boring?? do you mix up the distance every day? ten miles one day and eight the next? or do you just divide it out and try to do the same thing every day?
Thanks so much all