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2:40 to 3:20 marathoners - Is there a dead zone? (Read 181 times)

    Just a friendly poll to answer the most coveted running secret.

      Some of us will probably die if we run more than a mile at that pace.

        That's funny.

         

        Seriously though, I generally understand and agree with the idea that every run should have a purpose, but I don't really believe in a dead zone if you force me to make a choice. While running at something in between your true easy pace and your marathon pace on a day when you should be keeping it easy almost always a bad idea, there are times when something faster than easy but still not really a workout is just fine. Perfect even.

         

        I thought this was really well said:

         

        Wow - forum blew up with some solid discussion.  Brain droppings.

         

        point a)

        Nimmals - I was the one who kicked off the discussion, and just to be clear (because sometimes tone isn't obvious on the internet), I wasn't attacking you with my comment "What the hell is "BS in the dead zone"?"  I just had absolutely no idea what you meant.  Flippant request for clarification, not aggression.

         

        point b)

        I do believe that there is a zone of paces, generally falling between "honestly easy" and marathon pace, that is less productive than other training paces, and also happens to be where some gravitate to.  I think that's part ego "this is my easy pace" and part that some people are hooked on that runner's high, and training at "honestly easy" pace doesn't give you that high.  I think it's very hard for some to understand that you can reap massive benefits from a run that did not generate endorphins.

         

        point c)

        building on point b, I think there are some who will aggressively advocate for the benefit of training in this area because it feels good to them and it's a fun ego boost and it sure as heck feels like you're accomplishing something while at the same time not actually having to do the true work of a workout.

         

        point d)

        Confession: I do occasionally train in the "dead zone" myself - for me I would think that would be 7:15-8:15 pace right now.  I consider that "moderate" and I don't touch on it much, but I do hit it for a few miles in the middle of progression long runs, and also will occasionally intentionally substitute it in for a workout if I want to do something but think a full workout might be too much.  I NEVER sub it in for an easy day, though.

         

        point e)

        I also think that there's a lot of variety in the human body - I run my easy days fairly slowly but I know others who do get a bit flat if they don't run their easy days slightly faster than I do.

         

        point f)

        marathon pace is a completely different thing at different goal times - someone who is targeting a 2:30 marathon is training to hold a pace for 2:30, while I'm training to hold a pace for about 30 minutes longer.  That's a significant difference in intensity.  I would expect the gap between "honest easy" and marathon pace to vary depending on one's goal pace.  At one end, I would expect a 4:30+ marathoner's marathon pace to be not much different from their easy pace.

         

        point g)

        I listen to the Marcus/Magness podcast, and a while back Marcus was asserting that there was no value in his athletes (all much faster than me) training at marathon pace.  His point was that at a certain level, marathon pace itself is a dead zone, and you can reap many more benefits from training faster or slower.  I thought that was a really interesting perspective, and one I had not heard before.

         

        I actually think point d is underrated, especially during those times when you're just base building or not really yet "training" specifically for a goal race.

         

        Like, say, me right now. I'm signed up for VCM and I'm kinda sorta building for that, but I'm not kidding myself that I can be ready to really race it and I'm planning to do a sub-maximal run there. It serves the dual purposes of 1.) getting a Boston Qualifier for 2020 (when I'll be 50 FFS!) and 2.) forcing me to do a nice, slow, smart base build to position me to really able to train over the summer for some fall races.

         

        After 2 years lost to weird injuries and illness, and with no real goal races on the calendar until the fall, it's just not worth doing real workouts right now. My priority is building a base and staying healthy. I'm basically trying to do one hill "workout" and a long run and some easy running on the other days. I find myself drifting into the "dead zone" a couple of times a week, typically for part of my long run and one other run during the week.

         

        This is fine. In fact, for right now, it's better than the alternatives.

        Runners run.

          I wish I was dead was my vote.  But this debate did provide some entertainment this week.

          JMac11


          Benevolent Leader

             

             

            After 2 years lost to weird injuries and illness, and with no real goal races on the calendar until the fall, it's just not worth doing real workouts right now. My priority is building a base and staying healthy.

             

            Always a good goal! Hard to follow though.

             

            Someone has to provide the entertainment with sportsjester gone.

            5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

             

            Next Race: Suffolk County Half Marathon (10/27/19)

              Entertaining and thought provoking with a little drama. Good stuff.


              Elite Jogger

                 

                 Someone has to provide the entertainment with sportsjester gone.

                 

                Bit of a difference between sportsjester who probably doesn’t even know what a running track looks like and Slammin who is a successful coach and athlete. Check him out on Strava (Boyd Miler 72) and you’ll see his training and that he’s a well respected runner. He’s from your neck of the woods so maybe you’ll have the privilege of meeting him face to face at a race sometime. 😀

                 

                Anyway, at least his comments got a few posters out of the woodwork as I had always assumed that the RA Community section was the dead zone.

                5k - 17:53 (2019)   10k - 37:53 (2018)   Half - 1:23:18 (2019)   Full - 2:50:43 (2019)

                JMac11


                Benevolent Leader

                  Oh of course, but entertainment comes in a lot of forms!

                  5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                   

                  Next Race: Suffolk County Half Marathon (10/27/19)

                    Anyway, at least his comments got a few posters out of the woodwork as I had always assumed that the RA Community section was the dead zone.

                     

                    Well played.

                     

                    Our (well my) new year's resolution is to make contact with The Others.

                    Runners run.


                    Elite Jogger

                       

                      Well played.

                       

                      Our (well my) new year's resolution is to make contact with The Others.

                       

                      Cool!  You are one of the few RA screen names that I’m actually familiar with and I enjoy reading your posts. I hope you and the others continue posting on the Sub 3 thread as it did get a bit stale last year.

                      5k - 17:53 (2019)   10k - 37:53 (2018)   Half - 1:23:18 (2019)   Full - 2:50:43 (2019)

                        Who would have ever thought that royalty would lack self-awareness?

                         

                        Now, back to eating cake.

                        There was a point in my life when I ran. Now, I just run.

                         

                        We are always running for the thrill of it

                        Always pushing up the hill, searching for the thrill of it

                          just realized this poll was for 2:40-3:20 marathoners, Disregard my comment above.  Also not sure if I actually voted

                          Brewing Runner


                          Cat Disliker

                            There was this zone where I felt dead around halfway until the end. Does this count?

                            1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                            5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                            10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                            Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                            Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                            Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                            *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                             

                            2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

                             

                            Nimmals


                              Training 75%-85% MHR does little for fitness and requires moderate- maximum recovery time.

                              It is the reason so many recreational runners struggle with injuries and lack performance.

                              Elite runners do little to no training between 75-85% MHR.

                              The last time I posted about my dead zone which is similar to many of your own, as none of us are elite.

                              I was flogged around the fleet like dunce midshipman.

                               

                               Zone        Name Intensity  ~ Pace
                              2  Aerobic 65-75% MHR  7:45- 9:30
                              3  Extensive endurance   75-80% 7:20 - 7:45
                              4  Intensive endurance   80-85% 6:50 - 7:20
                              5 Anaerobic threshold 85-90% 5:40 - 6:40

                               

                               

                              I am over 46 years old with VO2, speed, and muscle mass decreasing every day. Even tso going on long easy runs will also speed up this process. I am fully aware this method will also increase my chance of injury but it does so at a slower rate.

                              Regardless I've been around long enough to see that the hammers have little to no degree of success. Sometimes they wisen up sometimes it is too late. If you're in the forum to learn. Focus. Where focus goes, success follows.

                              steve_


                              powered by plants

                                Training 75%-85% MHR does little for fitness and requires moderate- maximum recovery time.

                                It is the reason so many recreational runners struggle with injuries and lack performance.

                                Elite runners do little to no training between 75-85% MHR.

                                 

                                Amen.  The majority of runners I know (including most of my teammates) run way too fast 99% of the time and then too slow on raceday.  I still want someone to explain to me how running a 10 miler at 7:30 pace benefits me more than running a 10 miler at 8:30 pace.  All the former will do is beat me up more without giving any real training stimulus while the latter allows me to log easy miles and be recovered for the next run/workout.

                                5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                                *downhill AF

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