2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 426 times)

CommanderKeen


Aspiring Hobby Jogger

    Quick drive by. I've been silly busy with travel (soccer tournament-related) and stuff around the house (like fence building) for the last week, with more craziness this weekend and I'll be out next week as well.


    I have no idea how so many of you remember so many names/stories like this. I guess that's the introvert in me.

     

    Weekly for period: From: 05/23/2022 To 05/29/2022

    Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
    in ft
    05/23 Warming up 4.10 6.60 00:33:24 08:09 05:04 98
    05/23 4x 400,400,800 7.40 11.91 00:54:32 07:22 04:35 0
    05/23 Cooling down 3.00 4.83 00:25:04 08:21 05:11 118
    05/23 Faster because the rain was cold 4.10 6.60 00:32:20 07:53 04:54 236
    05/24 1 goose 6.00 9.66 00:53:47 08:58 05:34 472
    05/25 1 beaver! 10.55 16.98 01:29:11 08:27 05:15 1211
    05/25 3 puddle ducks & 1 hawk 5.50 8.85 00:46:18 08:25 05:14 240
    05/26 2 hawks 8.01 12.88 01:08:53 08:36 05:21 545
    05/27 1 Mississippi kite, 1 hawk, 1 rabbit, & 1mi @ HMe 12.25 19.71 01:38:49 08:04 05:01 413
    05/27 Almost to Missouri 4.26 6.85 00:35:29 08:20 05:11 269
    05/28 6 rabbits, 1 owl, 1 doe, & 1 buck in velvet (2 strides) 5.85 9.41 00:46:52 08:01 04:59 167
    05/29 2 goslings, 1 heron, 1 chipmunk, 1 deer (1 stride) 15.05 24.22 01:59:00 07:54 04:55 666

    Total distance: 86.08mi

    5k: 18:05 8/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

     

    Upcoming Races:

     

    Wurst Race Half - 10/8

    Toyota Music Factory Half - 11/13

    CIM - 12/4

    JMac11


    I spilled the milk

      Steve - it's actually a bit more of a critique of your coach, not you. What's his job if he's not spotting this? What's the point of having a coach if they aren't going to review the work you've done and give pointers where necessary? Anyone can just create a random plan. The point of having a coach is reviewing what you've done and tailoring the approach to you. I think your 3:20 goal is totally fine, but that means your easy runs need to slow down even more. That's 7:38 a mile, but your easy runs have been around 7:50? Anyway I think you should talk to your coach about it.

       

      I definitely think you're ready for big mileage. Excited to see what you put up!

       

      Keen - That's a lot of mileage for a guy who says he has no races coming up for months!

      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

       

      Next Race: Jersey Shore Half Marathon (10/2)

      Mikkey


      Elite Jogger

        Steve - it's actually a bit more of a critique of your coach, not you. What's his job if he's not spotting this? What's the point of having a coach if they aren't going to review the work you've done and give pointers where necessary? Anyone can just create a random plan. The point of having a coach is reviewing what you've done and tailoring the approach to you. I think your 3:20 goal is totally fine, but that means your easy runs need to slow down even more. That's 7:38 a mile, but your easy runs have been around 7:50? Anyway I think you should talk to your coach about it.

         

         


        I’m a lot more wary of giving an opinion to any runner with a coach now as most will be loyal and try to justify what they say no matter how absurd the paces look.

         

        If your GMP is 7:38 and 7:50 is easy pace, then that either means your easy runs are too fast or your GMP is too slow. 🤷‍♂️

        5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

        Ian5


          As a rule of thumb,what do you guys run your easy runs at compared to MP when your close to the race,so fully fit.Mine tend to come out about 1-1:30min slower.

          5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

          Running Problem


          Problem Child


            I’m a lot more wary of giving an opinion to any runner with a coach now as most will be loyal and try to justify what they say no matter how absurd the paces look.

             

            If your GMP is 7:38 and 7:50 is easy pace, then that either means your easy runs are too fast or your GMP is too slow. 🤷‍♂️

             

            *says he is wary of giving an opinion*

            *gives opinion*

             

            See the source image

            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

            VDOT 54.9

            5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07


              I’m a lot more wary of giving an opinion to any runner with a coach now as most will be loyal and try to justify what they say no matter how absurd the paces look.

               

              If your GMP is 7:38 and 7:50 is easy pace, then that either means your easy runs are too fast or your GMP is too slow. 🤷‍♂️

               

              I remember you telling Swim to fire his coach, I think after he dropped out of a 1 mile race he had been building up to for months . In his case I think you were right, whatever his coach was having him do was clearly not giving any results, and on top of that he was a major head case when it came time to race. Kind of the anti-Milkman in that way. I think his training was better when he had no coach and was making his own schedule.

              2:52:16 (2018)

              JMac11


              I spilled the milk

                As a rule of thumb,what do you guys run your easy runs at compared to MP when your close to the race,so fully fit.Mine tend to come out about 1-1:30min slower.

                 

                I always liked the Pfitz rules, using percentages. But it does fall apart outside certain ranges. He says easy runs can be 15-25% lower than MP. In general, I think that's about right. It does fall apart I think as you get below 2:30, or above 3:30. Guys who run their marathons at 5:00 flat pace, or 2:11, should not have their easy pace approaching 5:45 (15%). I imagine most of them are doing easy runs in the 25%-40% range. On the other hand, if you are running 8:00 miles for a 3:30, I don't think it's the end of the world if your easy runs are 9:00, which is faster than 15%.

                 

                I'm glad you phrased the question the way you did though. Easy pace moves around in relation to MP. These paces I'm referencing are when you are deep into marathon training and just doing your usual easy runs. If you are more fresh, the faster your paces are. Heat etc. impact things as well. I do get frustrated with people who just say "easy feels easy" or "it depends" and that's it. It's not very helpful for new runners, or runners taking on much bigger distances. Yes, it does depend. Some days my E pace is 1:00 slower than MP. Most days it's more around 1:15-1:30 slower, and some days it can be 2:00 slower.

                 

                 

                I think most runners go through these phases:

                 

                1. Run their easy runs too fast, not truly understanding what easy should feel like because they don't feel like it's as hard as a race, so they must be taking it easy
                2. Learn about taking easy runs easy , and then overdo it, saying they are looking to run a sub 3 marathon but brag about their easy runs at 9:30
                3. Find out what works best for them in the range spoken above: some are better in the +60 second range, some +120. Some runners fall outside of these ranges on the slower ends, but they have reasons: they've tried different paces and figured out what worked for them. 

                5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                 

                Next Race: Jersey Shore Half Marathon (10/2)

                JMac11


                I spilled the milk

                   

                  I remember you telling Swim to fire his coach, I think after he dropped out of a 1 mile race he had been building up to for months . In his case I think you were right, whatever his coach was having him do was clearly not giving any results, and on top of that he was a major head case when it came time to race. Kind of the anti-Milkman in that way. I think his training was better when he had no coach and was making his own schedule.

                   

                  Oh my, I remember that! I think it was pre-CIM, so sometime in 2019? He had this massive build up, running insane mileage for a 1 mile event (like 80+) , and then had a sort of mental breakdown and said "I can't do this, I'm dropping out." That was so strange!

                  5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                   

                  Next Race: Jersey Shore Half Marathon (10/2)

                  SteveChCh


                  Hot Weather Complainer

                    7:50 is 100% not my easy pace. I’m more looking for 8:00 - 8:15 pace with 8:00 the absolute upper limit (admittedly the last few weeks that hasn’t happened). I know it should probably be slower still. My marathon target is around 7:28 (4:40/km allowing for the extra 500-600 metres).

                    Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                    Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                    Race plan:  Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022

                    Ian5


                      Jmac-Thanks for that.I think too often people run all types of runs based on where they want to be,rather than where they currently are.I'm aiming for sub 3,but currently I'm about 3:12,hit 3:14 at Boston so couple of mins off vs Chicago,so my MP is 7:20,my easy runs are between 8:20 and 8:50 now,so not too far away from those %'s.I aim to be 140 or lower HR and hopefully over the next couple of months the speed will gradually increase for the sane effort.

                      5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

                      Mikkey


                      Elite Jogger

                         

                        *says he is wary of giving an opinion*

                        *gives opinion*

                         

                        See the source image

                         

                        I said I was wary of giving an opinion. That doesn’t mean that I won’t give an opinion. 

                        5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                        CalBears


                          As a rule of thumb,what do you guys run your easy runs at compared to MP when your close to the race,so fully fit.Mine tend to come out about 1-1:30min slower.

                           

                          Whatever you do, just remember one main rule - don't ever run anything in 7:00 - 7:40 range as it is an infamous dead zone - very dangerous....

                          paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                          JMac11


                          I spilled the milk

                            One other metric that hits on the last two posts from Steve and Ian as well that is a good metric - are you hitting your workout paces?

                             

                            About 6 weeks ago, I was using 15% slower than MP as my "upper" limit, i.e. I could run slower than that, but if I hit that pace, I would dial back a bit. I missed two big workouts in a row, just feeling like crap. That told me those easy paces were too quick: you can't be near the absolute upper limit of easy pace, and then blow up on workouts. So for the rest of the cycle, I set my upper limit as 20%, and I started doing much better with my workouts after. That's the trial and error that occurs a bit.

                             

                            Steve - if you're good at running the tangents, the marathon shouldn't run that long. 100 meters would be closer based on my experience. So I think your GMP really is around 7:35. Anyway, I think even 8:00 is too fast given those goal posts, but it's going to take time for you to learn how to slow down. I ran almost exactly like you used to: when I ran my first sub 90, I was doing easy runs right around what your pace is now, 7:45. It just takes a lot of mental effort learning how to slow down. This board helped me a lot in that regard. It's a journey. I don't know that anyone gets their easy pace right at the start. Maybe someone here has, but we have a lot more stories of all of us running too fast.

                            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                             

                            Next Race: Jersey Shore Half Marathon (10/2)

                            Ian5


                              Jmac-I don't tend to do workouts,it's something I probably need to add,but I usually race once a month so treat that as my workout.Based on 3:12,most calculators have 5k at 20mins,I was a bit ahead of that last week so that says it's OK,I have a very local 10k next week that I do every year,it's saying about 41:30 for that,so I'll see,to be honest I'll be disappointed if that's what I get.

                              Another question,do you think its possible to get near sub 3 by easy running alone,with 1 race a month?

                              5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

                              Marky_Mark_17


                                Or you could, you know, not be a total slave to your watch and run easy pace based on feel.  Crazy I know.

                                3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                                10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                                * Net downhill course

                                Last race: National 10km Road Champs, 4 Sept, 34:13

                                Up next: Nelson Half Marathon, 6 Nov

                                "CONSISTENCY IS KING"