2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 346 times)

Running Problem


Problem Child

    RP- Thanks for the feedback.  Just ordered JD's book never tried his plans before because the runs seemed too complicated but maybe that's what I need.  Previous I've loosely followed pfitz. hope your day improves.

     

    AS others have said, once you figure out the M/I/T/E/R paces you'll have it down. There is a massive spreadsheet on Lets Run or somewhere on the internet (JMAC SHOULD LINK THE SPREADSHEET ON THE FRONT PAGE) breaking everything down so it's easier to just know the pace.

     

    JMAC I'm not even sure what makes me a better marathon runner. I wish I could take whatever it is and apply it to life outside of running.

    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

    VDOT 54.9

    5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

    Longboat


    On the roads again...

       

      AS others have said, once you figure out the M/I/T/E/R paces you'll have it down. There is a massive spreadsheet on Lets Run or somewhere on the internet (JMAC SHOULD LINK THE SPREADSHEET ON THE FRONT PAGE) breaking everything down so it's easier to just know the pace.

       

       

      A friend of mine created that spreadsheet:

      https://www.electricblues.com/html/runpro.html

      On the subject of how many workouts, I used to follow the Hanson's principle of 5 SOS (Something of Significance") runs over two weeks. 
      A long run at easy pace, just building endurance, would not be a SOS. An example of the two-week pattern could be:
                      2 tempo runs, 1 medium intervals (400-1k), 1 shorter marathon pace, 1 long run with quality. 
      If the non-LR workout become particularly intense (say, an all-out 10k-10 mile race), drop to 2 workouts and 2 long runs in two weeks.

      Now I need more recovery (too old for that 5 SOS pattern) so I would try for 3 to 4 SOS run.

      Neil

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I'm here to tell you that fast is better. I've always believed this, in spite of the trouble it's caused me. - Hunter S. Thompson

         

        AS others have said, once you figure out the M/I/T/E/R paces you'll have it down. There is a massive spreadsheet on Lets Run or somewhere on the internet (JMAC SHOULD LINK THE SPREADSHEET ON THE FRONT PAGE) breaking everything down so it's easier to just know the pace.

         

        JMAC I'm not even sure what makes me a better marathon runner. I wish I could take whatever it is and apply it to life outside of running.

         

        There's also a free app (vdot calc ... it's green and says vdotO2 on it). Just have to put in your current race ability in particular distance and it will predict your vdot, training paces at different daniels levels, and race times at other distances. It follows the daniels formula and is super easy to use. Nice for reference.

        Next Races: Fools Run 10 mile (4/2/22), York Marathon (5/15/2214/23), Stupid Marathon TT (June 2022)

        JMac11


        I spilled the milk

          Thanks Longboat. I use that spreadsheet religiously. The thing I like about the spreadsheet vs. other sites is you can tailor the distance in the formulas as needed. Sometimes I run goofy race distances (e.g. 7.1 miles) and other website don't have that as a choice. I also like the ability to convert different paces with a click from miles to KM if needed for 1K or 1200 repeats.

           

          5 SOS seems like a lot for marathon training. I think it would work well for half marathon training or lower, but 5 marathon workouts in two weeks is a lot!

          5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

           

          Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (8/27)

          AceHarris


            Reading Daniel's Running Formula is one of the reasons I got a coach, haha! I had read through it and started writing out my training plan and somewhere along the way figured I was going to screw it up, so why not let someone else do it?

             

            Keen: That's an interesting point about proprioception. I definitely alter my gait when I can't see the road/greenway/trail very well. I don't trust myself I guess, even on familiar roads. I also have a weird proprioception thing in my right leg sometimes. I'll start going up stairs and on the second or third step I feel like my foot should have already hit the stair and I have to look down to make sure it's in the right place and I'm not about to fall. Kind of a crazy feeling.

             

            My 10-miler is now in "questionable" status. On Wednesday morning I was running and approaching a walking bridge  (that I run all the time, it's on Dino-Cookie route IYKYK) with my headlamp off and my first step on the bridge was awkward and I tweaked my right achilles. I ran the remaining 2.5 miles without much issue. Thursday morning I definitely could not run due to pain, so since then I've iced/heated/stretched/massaged and it is feeling much improved. Odd thing was it hurt most going down stairs. Plan is to go to the race, warm up, do some strides and see how it feels. I'd love to do it, but I also don't want to sabotage future goals this cycle.

            Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 17:09 (2021), 10k: 35:54 (2021), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:53:18 (2021)


            Elite Jogger

               

              Thanks Mikkey - 12 weeks to go and it's looking a bit daunting but I've got a good base.  I hope you're right about the negative split, that would definitely make me want to go again and go for it.  I think if I stretched my goal this time round I could get it, but could also end in tears.

               

              You need to start looking at the positive...there’s nothing daunting about a marathon 12 weeks out when you’ve already got a great base.

               

              It’s time to start believing that you’re going to smash it and don’t be fixated on a sub3:20.  Let’s just wait and see. 👍

              5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

              SteveChCh


              Hot Weather Complainer

                 

                You need to start looking at the positive...there’s nothing daunting about a marathon 12 weeks out when you’ve already got a great base.

                 

                It’s time to start believing that you’re going to smash it and don’t be fixated on a sub3:20.  Let’s just wait and see. 👍

                 

                Yep, you're right.  I am feeling pretty positive even if it doesn't sound that way.  Nothing coming up in the next 12 weeks is a significant step up from what I've done before.  I'll reassess closer to the race but at this stage I'll stick to my target pace for at least 30km and see where I'm at.

                Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                Race plan:  Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022

                JMac11


                I spilled the milk

                   

                  Yep, you're right.  I am feeling pretty positive even if it doesn't sound that way.  Nothing coming up in the next 12 weeks is a significant step up from what I've done before.  I'll reassess closer to the race but at this stage I'll stick to my target pace for at least 30km and see where I'm at.

                   

                  I agree with Mikkey. I will say I am NEVER in shape with 12 weeks to go. I don't feel anything good until about 8 weeks to go, and marathon ready usually 4 weeks to go.

                   

                   

                  Another week of all easy mileage for me, 50 miles. Going to take some time off now as I've had a great build up for 6 weeks and I could use a down week just to ensure everything is building up strongly. No running again until Thurs/Fri for me.

                  5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                   

                  Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (8/27)

                  Running Problem


                  Problem Child

                    My last marathon was 12 weeks of training. It wasn’t my first marathon, and I totally supported the mentality of ‘you need to be in race shape on race day’ to keep myself motivated through it all. I think it kind of worked enjoy to justify considering it somewhat decent advice.

                    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                    VDOT 54.9

                    5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                    darkwave


                    Mother of Cats

                       

                      I agree with Mikkey. I will say I am NEVER in shape with 12 weeks to go. I don't feel anything good until about 8 weeks to go, and marathon ready usually 4 weeks to go.

                       

                      If you are in shape with 12 weeks to go, you will be WAY beyond your peak by race day.

                      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                       

                      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                      SteveChCh


                      Hot Weather Complainer

                         

                        If you are in shape with 12 weeks to go, you will be WAY beyond your peak by race day.

                         

                        Yep - I would say I'm in good shape but a long way off marathon racing shape so I still think I can peak at the right time.  My confidence is that I have the base to be able to do the work I need in the next 12 weeks, not that I'm close to being ready now.

                        Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                        Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                        Race plan:  Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022

                        darkwave


                        Mother of Cats

                          My week:

                          60 miles running, 3 hours pool-running, and 1000 yards swimming.

                          M: 90 minutes pool-running and upper body weights/core
                          T: 11 miles on the treadmill, including a workout of 8 repeats of 2 minutes strong at a 3.0 incline, 90 second jog, 30 second stride, and 60 second jog. Followed with leg strengthwork. Dry needling of legs in afternoon.
                          W: 8 miles very easy on treadmill (9:51), streaming yoga, and 4 miles very easy outside (9:48) plus drills/strides.
                          Th: 90 minutes pool-running and upper body weights/core. ART appointment in afternoon.
                          F: 11 miles, including a track workout of 4800m in 21:07 (7:09/7:01/6:57), 1 lap jog, and then 2x400, 4x200 with equal distance recovery in 95, 96, 48, 47, 47, 47. Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
                          Sa: 9 miles easy on treadmill (9:39), streaming yoga, and then 3 miles very easy outside (9:25) plus drills/strides.
                          Su: 14 miles on the treadmill, including a tempo workout of 4x7:30 at tempo effort (paces of 7:04, 7:04, 7:01, and 7:01) with 90 second jog in between. Full recovery and then four short (40 second) intervals at between 9.1 and 9.8 mph with 80 second jog to work on turnover.

                          (the final 2 miles of the cooldown were with my Lever Runner). Followed with injury prevention work and 500 yards recovery swimming.

                           

                          I spent a fair amount of time on the treadmill this week due to very cold and dry air outside. Generally, when the dew point is lower than 10F, my asthma gets aggravated - I've learned that if I force hard running in that situation it takes me a few days to recover.

                           

                          I got my quads/glutes/it band dry needled on Tuesday - wow did they need it. My quads spasmed a LOT during the needling. And felt looser the next day.

                           

                          I also had a bit of a revelation, prompted by a friend's observation during my Friday track workout that I had no hip extension. Lack of hip extension can be due to lack of hip flexibility (not my issue) but can also be due to core instability. So I decided to try Jay DiCharry's "Chair of Death" exercise (look it up - not that scary), and noted that I was arching my back whenever I fired my glutes. It's not a core weakness thing - I've got a very strong core. It's just a muscle habit thing.

                           

                          So I aligned my core properly and then applied KT tape to my front torso before all my runs this weekend - the idea is that the KT tape pulls any time I start arching my back, and reminds me to keep stuff pulled in.

                           

                          And both my weekend runs were considerably improved - my leg felt much more powerful and responsive. My hunch is that when my back arches, things get pinched, and that causes my issues.

                           

                          Hopefully I'll be able to do a track workout on Tuesday, and test out how the taped core works there.

                          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                           

                          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            Weekly for period: From: 01/10/2022 To 01/16/2022

                            Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                            in ft
                            01/10 Checking on Gary 6.41 10.31 00:49:47 07:46 04:50 531
                            01/11 Another intro workout 6.38 10.27 00:47:26 07:26 04:37 932
                            01/12 Morning Run 6.05 9.74 00:47:28 07:51 04:52 463
                            01/13 Easy day wife run 2.13 3.43 00:20:03 09:25 05:51 187
                            01/14 Morning Run 8.27 13.31 01:04:30 07:48 04:51 797
                            01/15 Morning Run 12.30 19.79 01:34:49 07:43 04:47 528
                            01/16 Easy day, last couple with Angie 6.34 10.20 00:52:15 08:14 05:07 456

                            Total distance: 47.88mi

                             

                            Pretty good week, especially considering the weather. Early AM has been cold (not unusual), but the wind has been stupid. One of the blessings of running early in the morning is wind is rare, just not so much this week. I was surprised by the elevation gain on my workout this week, explains the sore calves the next couple days. I haven't hit the HR monitor in a while so I may throw that on for the next few weeks just to see where I am at. Considering taking a down week next week as I have been on a steady climb for 7-8 weeks now... but can you really take a down week when you only hit a max of 47mpw? Maybe I'll save that for when my legs are feeling worse or when I hit some bigger miles.

                             

                            So far so good.

                            Next Races: Fools Run 10 mile (4/2/22), York Marathon (5/15/2214/23), Stupid Marathon TT (June 2022)

                            SteveChCh


                            Hot Weather Complainer

                              darkwave - Good to hear you may have solved one issue.  Chair of death...not an enticing name but actually doesn't look too bad.

                               

                              coach - I can handle almost any level of cold (within reason) if it's calm, but the wind is a killer.

                               

                              I'll post my week here, unsure if I'll continue cross posting or not but given I'm marathon training and there's a lot of knowledge and tips in this thread, it would be silly not to get every piece of potential advice I can.

                               

                              My biggest week so far, with a decent run in the hills to build some strength.  I cramped up badly with about 2km to go, but a minute of stretching allowed me to finish with no damage.  It may be a combination of being a bit slack on the nutrition as the runs get longer and warmer, along with working slightly different muscles or working them harder than on the flat.

                               

                              Weekly for period: From: 01/10/2022 To 01/16/2022

                              Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                              in ft
                              01/10 Warm up 0.28 0.46 00:02:49 10:04 06:07 0
                              01/10 70 mins easy pace 8.76 14.09 01:10:03 08:00 04:58 62
                              01/10 Strides 0.73 1.18 00:06:13 08:31 05:16 0
                              01/12 Warm up 0.31 0.50 00:02:57 09:31 05:54 0
                              01/12 Med-Long incl. 3km @ 4:45/km, 3km @ 4:35/km, 2km @ 4:25/km, 1km easy, 2km @ 4:25/km 11.22 18.06 01:24:56 07:34 04:42 36
                              01/13 Recovery 6.62 10.65 00:58:06 08:47 05:27 69
                              01/14 Warm up 0.28 0.46 00:02:46 09:53 06:01 0
                              01/14 Easy 10km 6.26 10.07 00:50:34 08:05 05:01 43
                              01/14 Strides 0.75 1.20 00:06:02 08:03 05:02 0
                              01/15 Warm up 0.32 0.51 00:03:00 09:23 05:53 33
                              01/15 Summit Road Climbing 17.48 28.13 02:29:21 08:33 05:19 1952
                              01/16 Recovery 4.04 6.50 00:36:19 08:59 05:35 33

                              Total distance: 57.05mi

                              Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                              Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                              Race plan:  Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022

                                Steve: Same here. I could care less about cold, but as soon as you add wind it's a struggle. This especially goes for harder workout days. I hate fighting the wind.

                                Next Races: Fools Run 10 mile (4/2/22), York Marathon (5/15/2214/23), Stupid Marathon TT (June 2022)