2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 464 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

    What kind of rest do you take between running and leg strength work? I've been playing around with this. If possible I prefer a couple hours but I'm not sure how necessary that is?

     

    So...there's really three ways to do it:

     

    1) leg strengthwork about 8-12 hours BEFORE your running workout.

    2) leg strengthwork immediately after your running workout.

    3) leg strengthwork about 8-12 hours after your running workout.

     

    I go with option 2 because I like to maximize my recovery as much as possible between hard days, and also because I'm time constrained and can't workout twice in one day.  So I do the running workout, quickly grab a protein bar and a recovery drink, and then head to the gym.

     

    I believe a lot of people with more time go for option 3.   And when you read on fora like letsrun, there are a lot of really smart people (or at least they seem that way on the internet) who advocate for option 1.  Theat being said, I don't know of anyone who has succeeded with option 1.  The idea behind option 1 is that it "primes your legs" or something like that for the hard running workout.  In practice for non-professional runners, it seems to just mean that they run the workout on dead legs.

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

    Marky_Mark_17


      What kind of rest do you take between running and leg strength work? I've been playing around with this. If possible I prefer a couple hours but I'm not sure how necessary that is?

       

      I normally go with Darkwave's option (2) and do it immediately after a recovery run.  Mostly that's just down to time constraints, but it seems to work OK.

      3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

      10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

      * Net downhill course

      Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

      Up next: Speights West Coaster, 10 Dec

      "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

      darkwave


      Mother of Cats

         

        I normally go with Darkwave's option (2) and do it immediately after a recovery run.  Mostly that's just down to time constraints, but it seems to work OK.

         

        I will note - for me, option 2 is after a WORKOUT.   I.e. do 6x800 on the track, jog a cooldown, and then go immediately to the gym.

        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

         

        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

          As for Taco Bell, I can totally see training with Taco Bell and then swapping to Chipotle for the race -  very similar to training in Zoom Flies and swapping to Vaporflies for the race.

           

           

          Good analogy. Bell and Chipotle are my favorites...nothing like a good burrito!

           

          I agree on the awkwardness going from hill training to flat fast running; I used to try to do a fast flat mile after my hill sessions (in the same run, just after the hill work) and it's just too difficult. My legs are toasted after the hills.

           

          Steve: Very nice getting in the half at M pace. I'm with you on the annoyance of "tailgaters" trying to draft in races. I remember a 5k where a jackass was doing this to a group of us, one after the other, and following extremely close. Finally one guy yelled at him and he finally backed off. Certainly not what you want to deal with when racing.

           

          Things are going better for me. Mileage is getting where I want it, and workouts are going ok. I had bloodwork this week and hemoglobin is still low at 12.6, but getting there. Now I'm thinking the BQ will definitely be possible by September, and maybe even a sub 3.

           

          Weekly for period: From: 06/13/2022 To 06/19/2022

          Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
          in ft
          06/13 Morning Run - treadmill 6.04 9.71 55:49 9:14 5:45 0
          06/14 3 x 2 mi (12:30, 12:36, 12:21) 12.81 20.61 1:31:27 7:08 4:26 551
          06/15 Trail Run 6.24 10.04 1:00:33 9:42 6:02 492
          06/16 Morning Run 10.16 16.35 1:24:43 8:20 5:11 574
          06/17 Morning Run 10.58 17.02 1:31:10 8:37 5:21 607
          06/18 Trail Run 6.31 10.16 58:03 9:12 5:43 492
          06/19 Long Run 20.03 32.23 2:42:33 8:07 5:03 961

          Total distance: 72.17 mi

          2:52:16 (2018)

          Fishyone


            Jmac- Nice marathon! especially considering the marathon travel day you ran just to toe the line.  The MM is yours for the taking this fall.

            5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

            Marky_Mark_17


               

              Steve: Very nice getting in the half at M pace. I'm with you on the annoyance of "tailgaters" trying to draft in races. I remember a 5k where a jackass was doing this to a group of us, one after the other, and following extremely close. Finally one guy yelled at him and he finally backed off. Certainly not what you want to deal with when racing.

               

              I had a guy sit on my shoulder for the entirety of a half marathon in March (not an exaggeration).  We were leading the race and I ended up beating him in a sprint finish, the 2 second margin I had at the end was the widest of the entire race.   I would've been absolutely filthy if he had pipped me.

              3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

              10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

              * Net downhill course

              Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

              Up next: Speights West Coaster, 10 Dec

              "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

              JMac11


              RIP Milkman

                 

                Remember, the poor guy still has to drive back to NYC from Philadelphia....

                 

                BTW, looks like DLS had a nice evenly paced race.  I'll let him check in with the details if he wants.

                 

                 

                I had a fun travel day. Drove 2.5 hours back to Minneapolis, then flew to Boston, then to Philly, then drove back 2.5 hours to NYC. Let's just say there was a lot of time to think about the race.

                 

                Besides my legs, you know what's really sore? My right abs, right where I got the stitch. I wonder if that somehow led to the nausea too. Funny enough, I was in one of those changing tents post race and one of the male elites (he had one of those official IDs around his neck) was on the phone to someone talking about his race. I swear it was like he was talking about me: he said he dropped out because his stitch was so bad it felt like he was being stabbed. More directly, he  said "after 10 years of this, you think I would have figured it out by now." Couldn't have said it better myself, although I imagine lots of people have issues they just can't solve no matter what they do, e.g. late race cramping, nausea, stitches, blisters.

                 

                I'll catch up on other folks later, especially Steve's MP work.

                5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                 

                 

                cinnamon girl


                  JT: I'm glad to hear you're back at it and that it's going well!  As always, love the elevation in your daily runs. 
                  JMac: go get the mug at NYC. Legit.

                   

                  Not sure why time goes by so fast, but now 52 yo  just finished week 2 of 16 to Berlin

                  Week 1
                  M: 55 min in AM (8:24), 35 min in PM (8:34)
                  T: 6 miles +strides (8:13)
                  W: (1200,800,400) x 2  (4:30, 3:00, 1:25; 4:33, 3:03, 1:26) 2 min jog after 1200s, 1 min after 800s, 3 min between sets
                  T: 80 min +250 ft (8:09)
                  F: off
                  S: 12 mi +350ft (7:35)
                  S: 60 min treadmill

                   

                  Week 2
                  M: 60 min treadmill
                  T: 8 x 800 (3:06, 3:07, 3:08, 3:03, 3:05, 3:05, 3:04, 3:03) w/2 min jog rec
                  W: 10 mi +280 ft (8:09)
                  R: off
                  F: 4 x 2400 (9:50, 9:48, 9:46, 9:39) w/400 easy pace (2:05)
                  S: 7 mi (8:28)
                  S: 17 mi +450 ft (8:02)

                   

                  This coming week just a 3 x 2 mid-week workout and then hopefully some quality (or not) in a med-long/long run while I’m visiting Eugene. Of course I’m super excited for the 1500 and 5000! (and a favorite French restaurant)

                  Nothing really of significance in recent past other than 6th F and 1st Master at Oakland Half in March which I was not expecting. at. all. I had Covid for a couple weeks in February (in addition to the lack of decent training  ) The top 5 women were 20 to 25 years younger I've arranged places to stay in Berlin but cannot get myself to give any money to the airlines right now.

                  2022: Oakland Half 6th F, 1st Master, AG 84%, Lake Merced Half 2nd F, AG 86%

                  MM (Houston '12, LA '15, NYC '16, Vancouver '19)

                  No carbon plates

                  Ian5


                    Jmac-Tough luck at Grandmas,looked really good early on,you know you can get the MM at NYC though.

                    JT-Good to hear things are improving,you can feel the confidence just in your rewriting.

                    Darkwave-That sounds like a lot in your week,is that the type of mileage etc you do when you're getting back in to form?

                    Stevie-Good workout, boding well doing that this far out.

                    Not as good a week from me,my achilles has been the bain of my running and played up again on Saturday so didn't run over the weekend,left me ending on 39 miles,so the first week I've not hit my target,feels better today so will go for a run soon,I have an extra day off and an easy week this week in work.

                    Weekly for period: From: 06/13/2022 To 06/19/2022

                    Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                    in ft
                    06/14 Afternoon Run 12.68 20.40 01:46:51 08:26 05:14 597
                    06/15 Afternoon Run 7.14 11.49 01:00:03 08:25 05:14 315
                    06/16 Afternoon Run 7.05 11.34 00:59:52 08:30 05:17 315
                    06/17 Afternoon Run 12.16 19.57 01:43:06 08:29 05:16 541

                    Total distance: 39.03mi

                    5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

                    zebano


                      JMac  I posted this on strava but that is one heck of a rally. really a shame that the stomach killed the chance at a moose mug (I wouldn't discount disrupted sleep dealing with travel either) but that is one heck of a race and you laid it all out there. Great effort.

                       

                      DW I'm going to have to go see if I can source this but I thought 4 hours before/after was enough rest after your running workout. IIRC Jay Dicharry in one of his two books (Running Rewired IIRC) suggests doing option 1 - fit in the morning - workout at noon or latter.

                       

                      C&P from the Waltons thread since I'm now officially training for TC Marathon (3:10 is looking like a very ambitious goal for me).

                       

                       

                       

                      I had a strong week in that I got the miles in and felt good overall but my legs don't really feel like they've recovered from race season. In short 7:30-40 feels like marathon pace and 7:10 feels like threshold and I'm just not sure that I have any gears above that right now (was running threshold at 6:45ish pre race).

                       

                      In bad news my right knee has been hurting going down stairs and I think it has to do with the split squats I started doing last week. I'm cautiously changing those to lunges and it was feeling better by the end of the week but I'm keeping an eye on it. One possibility I'm considering is it might just be a muscular imbalance as I'm really hitting quads, calves and adductors in particular without any hamstring work.

                       

                      M: 15m strength, mostly rest

                      Tue 9.1 miles w/ 7:36, 7:36, 3min jog 7:12 near the end (goal was 7:40, 7:30, 3 min jog, 6:40) + 15 min strength

                      Wed really easy 4.1 miles

                      Thur "easy" 10.6 on trails in 90F w/ 6 short hill sprints... This was brutal and while pace was 9:29/mi this was my hardest run of the week effort wise. I made sure to run early in the morning every day after this + 15min strength

                      Fri  8 mi progression from 9:52 -> 7:02, 1 mile down. This was smooth and other than the final 2 miles at M and T effort it was so much better than yesterday.

                      Sat easy 4.1 mi (9:11/mi), 45 min z2 bike ride.

                      Sun 13.1 mi as 7 up (8:31) + 2M (7:39, 7:35) + 1T (7:11) + 3 down (8:20) -- legs felt much much better on this effort than the very similar workout on Tuesday. Part of that is the lesser heat and humidity but I'm hoping my body is remembering how to run quickly and relaxed.

                       

                       

                      50.1 miles

                       

                      A fine start to marathon training even if I'm not terribly strong right now. Next week I get to throw some VO2 work in so we'll see how the legs respond to that.

                      1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                      JMac11


                      RIP Milkman

                        Thanks everyone for the kind words. I'm glad I went for it: it clearly wasn't a blow up issue and I paced the thing damn near perfectly at the half, so it's not like I can look back and be upset for how I went into the race. I would much rather be sitting here with a 2:40 having gone for the MM then just going for a 15 second PR and wondering what if?

                         

                        This is my first marathon I haven't PR'd though, so I'm trying to take it one step at a time. I have the feeling most probably have at this point which is "how can I go through another full cycle again just to be disappointed" but I really don't have to pick up my training until mid-July so just going to suppress those thoughts for now.

                         

                        Cinammon is back! I hope you stick around. We've missed you in these threads and I feel like we only see you twice a year these days!

                         

                        Steve - I can't believe it: a New Zealand race that didn't measure short? Is that the first one this year??? Congrats to the race director. In all seriousness, MP in a HM race is great practice and really well done. Keep getting those MP workouts in. Given you ran it in 1:36 in terrible conditions on a course that is clearly well marked, I have a lot of faith in your marathon abilities.

                         

                        JT - what's weird is my stomach in day to day life is pretty damn good. I eat anything and everything. But there's something about racing that just disagrees with me. I can't figure it out - I try "training" with water/gels, but maybe I just need to do it a lot more. I try to avoid nutrition in training too much so that I get a real boost in the race, but maybe that's wrong: maybe my limiting factor will never be carbs but my stomach and I need to hammer my stomach this summer/fall during training to get it better prepared. I still don't think that will help the stitches though: I can't believe how sore the right side of my stomach is.

                         

                        Zebano - forgot to mention - the first few weeks of marathon training is when I always get injured. If you remember, I had that knee tendonitis after doing squats myself about 10 weeks back. It lasted a full 6 weeks or so with the pain you described, but it's an injury you can run through as long as it doesn't hurt more and more as you run.

                         

                        Advanced Marathon Thread - this is going to be the light time of the year for the next month, so I appreciate everyone still posting their weeks! Usually things start picking up in late July when the real training gets going for fall marathons.

                        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                         

                         

                        Running Problem


                        Problem Child

                          I have the feeling most probably have at this point which is "how can I go through another full cycle again just to be disappointed" but I really don't have to pick up my training until mid-July so just going to suppress those thoughts for now.

                          If it was all rainbows and sprinkles everyone would do it every time. Chicago 2018. Mt. Charleston 2019. Shit....look at commanderkeen's record of going through cycles to be disappointed. The highs are so high because the lows are so low, or in fancier words....For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

                           

                           

                          You could always pick a different challenge.

                          https://www.jfk50mile.org/

                          Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                          VDOT 54.9

                          5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                          OMR


                            Jmac:  Congrats on a great run despite the horrible travel, etc.  Interesting that you started getting side stitches so early.  Just to throw it out there, have you ever considered whether or not your breathing plays a role in those?

                            JMac11


                            RIP Milkman

                              Jmac:  Congrats on a great run despite the horrible travel, etc.  Interesting that you started getting side stitches so early.  Just to throw it out there, have you ever considered whether or not your breathing plays a role in those?

                               

                              You know what's interesting? Everything I've read on stitches is that they think it's due to shallow breathing. I tried everything for about 3 miles that I usually do: deeper breaths, massages, out on the opposite foot, etc. None of it worked. You know what did? Making my breathing very shallow, like I was breathing through my chest instead of my belly. It makes no sense. But - the broader point is I need to continue to work on it during this upcoming cycle, see if any new techniques help.

                               

                              What's also interesting about my stitches is I get them on my left side if it's due to too much food/water in my stomach, my right side when it's a hard effort. How does that make any sense?

                               

                              RP - no interest in ultras for me. Ya'll know I'm retiring after NYCM anyway.

                              5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                               

                               


                              Speed Surplus

                                Already commented on Strava, but echoing here - valiant effort to still finish with 2:40.

                                 

                                As for side stiches, I used to get them in high school XC quite a bit. For me it was mostly anxiety. I'd be stressed about doing well, and worried about getting a stitch, which would ironically lead to more stitches.

                                 

                                I almost never get them anymore, even though I do get anxious before races. Not sure what changed.

                                5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12