2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 346 times)

CommanderKeen


Aspiring Hobby Jogger

     

    Improvement (especially in 40s and beyond) for someone who has been running consistently for years is a flag (I say that as someone who set all her lifetime PRs in her mid-40s).  Masters doping is a real issue, especially with the prevalence of anti-aging clinics and a remarkable # of people who insist that if a doctor prescribes something, it's legal and not cheating.

     

    The real red flags for me with regard to older runners doping is a) physique - are they absurdly ripped and getting more ripped each year?  and b) how is their recovery?  Are they racing week after week or doing back-to-back sessions that 20-somethings can barely handle and not breaking but thriving?    Masters runners can run quite fast, but they need to adjust as they age - more recovery, slower easy days, more sleep, more cross-training.  If you don't see that, then I get suspicious.

     

    People were sure for years that Kevin Castille was on something, mostly not because of the absolute speed of his performances, but because of how close those performances were to each other.  He was running a LOT of races on back-to-back weekends with no injury or loss of performance.  He didn't seem to need to recover like the normal late 40s guy.

    And then he got busted, and everyone was "YUP."

    a) "Ripped" for a runner. Imagine Kipchoge with a tiny bit of extra fat. 
    b) He doubles most days (12-ish mi total), throws in 20 milers quite consistently, and a recent workout was 4 miles at HM to 1hour race pace (800m jog), then 1k, 800m, 600m, 400m (400m recovery for these) at ~hour race pace, 10k pace, 5k pace, mile pace. Complete with generic social media "I struggled today but fought through and got it done" comment.

    I do know the guy works nights, which is just terrible for general health and recovery no matter who or what age. 

    Yes, I just strava stalked him a bit for this

    5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

     

    Upcoming Races:

     

    Wurst Race Half - 10/8

    CIM - 12/4

    CommanderKeen


    Aspiring Hobby Jogger

      If they’re older than me, and they’re faster than me, they’re doping.

       

      What if I'm older and slower?

      5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

       

      Upcoming Races:

       

      Wurst Race Half - 10/8

      CIM - 12/4

      Fishyone


         

        Fishy - His TLT workouts are my favorite! I actually find the last 2T in those workouts to be harder than something like 8E + 4x2T. Something about having to speed up after running easy for 60 minutes on tired legs always gets me. That's a brutal workout though: is that in the 86-100 plan? I haven't touched mileage that high yet.

         

         

         

        It is in the 71-85 and only supposed to be 18 miles but I foolishly added 2 miles.  Yes, the last mile of the 2T was the hardest I've had to work to keep a "T" pace.  I felt like I just couldn't get my legs to turn over.  He does seem to enjoy making you run fast on tired legs. This is not like what I've done in the past so I'm really looking forward to the results.

        5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

        Fishyone


           

          What if I'm older and slower?

           

          +1

          5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

          JMac11


          I spilled the milk

             

            What if I'm older and slower?

             

            If there wasn't already a Goal Z joke made in this thread, this one was a softball. We'll be nice about it though 

             

            Fishy - I cannot say this enough: please do NOT add more miles to his plans. I'd say the majority of people who run it as written say that it makes them burned out / injured. By adding mileage, you are making it more likely you will do so as well. Sure, it seems like just 2 more miles of cooldowns, but you have to accept that his runs of a lot of 16-18 miles with big quality is more than enough with the sporadic long runs he includes. I do modify his long runs to go a bit longer than he prescribes (e.g. I'll do 21-22 mile long runs instead of his 20 prescribed), but I never add anything to his quality days.

            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

             

            Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (8/27)

               

              Improvement (especially in 40s and beyond) for someone who has been running consistently for years is a flag (I say that as someone who set all her lifetime PRs in her mid-40s).  Masters doping is a real issue, especially with the prevalence of anti-aging clinics and a remarkable # of people who insist that if a doctor prescribes something, it's legal and not cheating.

               

              The real red flags for me with regard to older runners doping is a) physique - are they absurdly ripped and getting more ripped each year?  and b) how is their recovery?  Are they racing week after week or doing back-to-back sessions that 20-somethings can barely handle and not breaking but thriving?    Masters runners can run quite fast, but they need to adjust as they age - more recovery, slower easy days, more sleep, more cross-training.  If you don't see that, then I get suspicious.

               

              This is where I contend that Keira doesn't fit your argument. She had chronic injuries resulting in surgery that likely hampered any consistent training and therefore her results from college and just beyond. Is it likely that she really was a better than 16 min 5k runner in terms of talent? Probably, considering she never was able to reach her potential due to those injuries. Maybe she is just finally able to realize some of that potential now.

               

              Looking at Keira's body, outside of her legs she isn't absurdly ripped. She looks very fit, but not 20yr old fit. She also doesn't race that often.

               

              Again, not saying it's impossible that she doped, just arguing that its possible she didn't.

              Next Races: Fools Run 10 mile (4/2/22), York Marathon (5/15/2214/23), Stupid Marathon TT (June 2022)

              runethechamp


                 

                This is where I contend that Keira doesn't fit your argument. She had chronic injuries resulting in surgery that likely hampered any consistent training and therefore her results from college and just beyond. Is it likely that she really was a better than 16 min 5k runner in terms of talent? Probably, considering she never was able to reach her potential due to those injuries. Maybe she is just finally able to realize some of that potential now.

                 

                Looking at Keira's body, outside of her legs she isn't absurdly ripped. She looks very fit, but not 20yr old fit. She also doesn't race that often.

                 

                Again, not saying it's impossible that she doped, just arguing that its possible she didn't.

                I wonder what her training was like before the 2:34 race in Berlin.

                5k: 20:32 (1/17)  |  HM: 1:34:37 (2/18)  |  FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)

                 

                Getting back into it

                  I wonder what her training was like before the 2:34 race in Berlin.

                   

                  It's all up on Strava.

                   

                  I agree that she made some big jumps, but I agree with DW, the curve is exponential. My argument is perhaps her potential is high enough that she was still in the big progress portion of her exponential curve.

                  Next Races: Fools Run 10 mile (4/2/22), York Marathon (5/15/2214/23), Stupid Marathon TT (June 2022)

                  JMac11


                  I spilled the milk

                    I think all of this may fit for shorter races. I just don't see how exponential increases in the marathon, a race that by definition requires years of a strong aerobic base, can see that increase.

                     

                    If anything, the injuries make it even less likely this is legit. If she set a 10K AR, then sure. But the marathon with incredibly inconsistent training at her age? If this is legit then she had talent to be a WR holder without injuries.

                     

                    Either way, good discussion here. Something to distract us from the brutal cold many of us have been dealing with.

                    5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                     

                    Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (8/27)

                      I think all of this may fit for shorter races. I just don't see how exponential increases in the marathon, a race that by definition requires years of a strong aerobic base, can see that increase.

                       

                      If anything, the injuries make it even less likely this is legit. If she set a 10K AR, then sure. But the marathon with incredibly inconsistent training at her age? If this is legit then she had talent to be a WR holder without injuries.

                       

                      Either way, good discussion here. Something to distract us from the brutal cold many of us have been dealing with.

                       

                      It is a fun discussion!

                       

                      I have to disagree with your premise here. I would argue two things:

                       

                      1) She did set and AR in an even close to 10k. At least, much closer to 10k than to marathon. According to Daniels, her 10 mile pr is within 30 seconds of what is would equate to in her AR marathon. That is easily within error and individual, personal abilities.

                       

                      2) The marathon is the MOST likely distance to make big drops. This is partially because it is so long therefore each minute dropped is a smaller percentage of the whole race. It is also because the marathon can and often does become a display of specific, latent talent. There are many examples of runners who lacked 5k/10k talent yet went on to display significantly better ability in the marathon.

                       

                      Once she had the opportunity to train consecutively for a few years, supported by training she had done in the past and talent that has always been there (just unrealized), she made significant progress.

                      Next Races: Fools Run 10 mile (4/2/22), York Marathon (5/15/2214/23), Stupid Marathon TT (June 2022)

                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                         

                        This is where I contend that Keira doesn't fit your argument. She had chronic injuries resulting in surgery that likely hampered any consistent training and therefore her results from college and just beyond. Is it likely that she really was a better than 16 min 5k runner in terms of talent? Probably, considering she never was able to reach her potential due to those injuries. Maybe she is just finally able to realize some of that potential now.

                         

                        Looking at Keira's body, outside of her legs she isn't absurdly ripped. She looks very fit, but not 20yr old fit. She also doesn't race that often.

                         

                        Again, not saying it's impossible that she doped, just arguing that its possible she didn't.

                         

                        Agreed - but the post you quoted was not in reference to Keira, but rather as red flags in the context of older runners doping - a tangent discussion.  Since she is not a masters runner, I am just about 100% sure she is not a masters doper.  Smile

                        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                         

                        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                        darkwave


                        Mother of Cats

                           

                          1) She did set and AR in an even close to 10k. At least, much closer to 10k than to marathon. According to Daniels, her 10 mile pr is within 30 seconds of what is would equate to in her AR marathon. That is easily within error and individual, personal abilities.

                           

                          But again, that 10M record is in its own way as odd as the marathon, for similar reasons.  She ran a marathon in 2:34:55, which is the equivalent to a low 55 minute 10M.  And then solo time trialed a 10M race just over a year later in 51:22.  So just about 4 minutes off of her 10M time in a bit over a year.

                           

                          It's not probative, but it is notable and eyebrow raising.

                           

                           

                           

                           

                          Once she had the opportunity to train consecutively for a few years, supported by training she had done in the past and talent that has always been there (just unrealized), she made significant progress.

                           

                          And that's another thing that bothers me a bit.  The story is a bit murky (which may not be her fault - the media definitely gets stuff wrong).

                           

                          It's been publicly reported that she ran very little between 2009 and 2016 - I can tell you that's not quite accurate, as she raced a fair bit in 2012 and 2013 and trained with my running team in 2013.

                           

                          A lot of people seem to be under the impression that she quit running immediately after graduating college - she didn't.  She ran professionally for 3 years under the same person who is coaching her now - Scott Raczko (other members of that training group included Nikeya Green and Alan Webb).

                           

                          The explanation that this is what she was able to do when training consistently loses its impact when you see other periods where she trained consistently.

                           

                          And then there's a question about when she ran her first marathon - It was first reported Shamrock in 2017, and then apparently she told LetsRun it was the 2013 Missoula Marathon.  I know she ran Marine Corps in 2012, so Missoula could not have been her first.   How do you not remember your first marathon?

                          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                           

                          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                            LetsRun had a really good interview with both Deena and Keira earlier this week. In the interview Keira talks about how she went out of the way to get drug tested (paid for it herself) for her 10 mile American record despite a drug test not being required to ratify the record.

                             

                            Did she really say she paid for the drug test herself?

                             

                            She couldn't.  That was one of the issues - athletes can't pay for their own drug tests because it's considered to create a conflict of interest for the drug tester (which is funny because corporations hire and pay their own auditors).   The drug testing for that 10 miler was funded by grants from the Professional Road Running Organization and the Cherry Blossom race committee.

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            Fishyone


                               

                               

                              It's been publicly reported that she ran very little between 2009 and 2016 - I can tell you that's not quite accurate, as she raced a fair bit in 2012 and 2013 and trained with my running team in 2013.

                               

                              A lot of people seem to be under the impression that she quit running immediately after graduating college - she didn't.  She ran professionally for 3 years under the same person who is coaching her now - Scott Raczko (other members of that training group included Nikeya Green and Alan Webb).

                               

                              The explanation that this is what she was able to do when training consistently loses its impact when you see other periods where she trained consistently.

                               

                              And then there's a question about when she ran her first marathon - It was first reported Shamrock in 2017, and then apparently she told LetsRun it was the 2013 Missoula Marathon.  I know she ran Marine Corps in 2012, so Missoula could not have been her first.   How do you not remember your first marathon?

                              This is very interesting. I absolutely remember my first marathon. Possible reasons to exclude it from my story would be 1. I'm somehow embarrassed 2. It doesn't fit the narrative I'm trying to create 3. The dope I'm using is not performance enhancing but mind altering. 

                              5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                                Fair points...

                                 

                                I agree with the media being a lot of the issue in terms of ambiguity. Of course, that applies to "first marathon" as well. Let's be honest, she didn't forget her first, she likely just discounts it in terms of actually "racing" it and being in shape. How that is reported and even interpreted by readers is certainly ambiguous at best.

                                 

                                In terms of "consistent" training, from what I have read it seems like there were periods that were consistent in that she was able to train for longer periods of time, but training and racing were likely sub optimal due to her injury/physiological issues. She has said something to the effect that this return to elite level running has been the first time that she has really been able to train at a high level for a long period of time. There has always been some sort of trade off in training level or time spent training at the high level.

                                 

                                Again, I won't deny that it is suspicious. I only present the argument from the positive side since it seems like in this group, more are inclined toward the negative.

                                Next Races: Fools Run 10 mile (4/2/22), York Marathon (5/15/2214/23), Stupid Marathon TT (June 2022)