2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 335 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

    Fair points...

     

    I agree with the media being a lot of the issue in terms of ambiguity. Of course, that applies to "first marathon" as well. Let's be honest, she didn't forget her first, she likely just discounts it in terms of actually "racing" it and being in shape. How that is reported and even interpreted by readers is certainly ambiguous at best.

     

    In terms of "consistent" training, from what I have read it seems like there were periods that were consistent in that she was able to train for longer periods of time, but training and racing were likely sub optimal due to her injury/physiological issues. She has said something to the effect that this return to elite level running has been the first time that she has really been able to train at a high level for a long period of time. There has always been some sort of trade off in training level or time spent training at the high level.

     

    Again, I won't deny that it is suspicious. I only present the argument from the positive side since it seems like in this group, more are inclined toward the negative.

     

    And, as a lawyer, I appreciate arguing both sides of this issue, and like that you're taking that on.  Smile

     

    I do think that one could point to the fact that she ran a low 16 5K in her first stint as a professional with a bad foot as an indication that that 5K was not a full indication of her fitness at that time.  Perhaps she would have been a low 15 minute 5K runner at that time, instead of 15 years later.

     

    And while people focus on her age, I don't think late 30s is too old to be running the times she's running.

     

    There's a lot of reasons to believe this is a fair and clean performance, and nothing has been proven otherwise.  But the two things that keep sticking out to me like sore thumbs are:

    1) that big jump she took in 2020-2021 at a point where she should have been hitting diminishing returns and

    2) all the inconsistencies about her past running history (again, which could be the media confusing things rather than her mis-stating stuff).  Of course, none of those inconsistencies directly relate to her performance improvements - it's not like she forgot about a close friendship with Jama Aden.  But people who fudge stuff in one area often fudge stuff in other areas.

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

       

      And, as a lawyer, I appreciate arguing both sides of this issue, and like that you're taking that on.  Smile

       

      I do think that one could point to the fact that she ran a low 16 5K in her first stint as a professional with a bad foot as an indication that that 5K was not a full indication of her fitness at that time.  Perhaps she would have been a low 15 minute 5K runner at that time, instead of 15 years later.

       

      And while people focus on her age, I don't think late 30s is too old to be running the times she's running.

       

      There's a lot of reasons to believe this is a fair and clean performance, and nothing has been proven otherwise.  But the two things that keep sticking out to me like sore thumbs are:

      1) that big jump she took in 2020-2021 at a point where she should have been hitting diminishing returns and

      2) all the inconsistencies about her past running history (again, which could be the media confusing things rather than her mis-stating stuff).  Of course, none of those inconsistencies directly relate to her performance improvements - it's not like she forgot about a close friendship with Jama Aden.  But people who fudge stuff in one area often fudge stuff in other areas.

      I think that we are more alike in our beliefs on this issue than we are different, but still, it is fun to theorize.

       

      As to your above points:

       

      Argument 1) I agree the big jump is the most suspect. I do not believe that it necessitates doping, but it is suspect. Nevertheless, ALL major improvements are suspect.

       

      Argument 2) I agree in that her inconsistencies in the past can be suspect. In my estimation, it would seem that these inconsistencies, combined with a successful surgery, time off, a consistent few years of training, new coaching, and a re-invigoration toward running could all add up to major gains. It could also mean she had chemical help. It's pretty likely if she did, eventually we will know.

      Next Races: Fools Run 10 mile (4/2/22), York Marathon (5/15/2214/23), Stupid Marathon TT (June 2022)

      HermosaBoy


        Do we want to add Sara Hall into the discussion?

         

        51 races of 20k or longer since 2014 and still dropping an American Half Marathon record at age 38?

         

        Impressive that she can race that much and still keep improving.

        And you can quote me as saying I was mis-quoted. Groucho Marx

         

        Rob

        jhudak55


           

          Did she really say she paid for the drug test herself?

           

          She couldn't.  That was one of the issues - athletes can't pay for their own drug tests because it's considered to create a conflict of interest for the drug tester (which is funny because corporations hire and pay their own auditors).   The drug testing for that 10 miler was funded by grants from the Professional Road Running Organization and the Cherry Blossom race committee.

          https://youtu.be/EQJ1xByP0no

          This is the interview I was referring to. At 37 minutes they start discussing drug testing/doping and at 43 minutes they talk about the 10 mile AR. Unless I am misinterpreting, she says that she paid for her testing at the

          Up Dawg 10 Miler. Although, if she put the race on would she have paid for everyone’s drug testing?

          darkwave


          Mother of Cats

            I agree in that her inconsistencies in the past can be suspect. In my estimation, it would seem that these inconsistencies, combined with a successful surgery, time off, a consistent few years of training, new coaching, and a re-invigoration toward running could all add up to major gains. It could also mean she had chemical help. It's pretty likely if she did, eventually we will know.

             

            With regard to new coaching, her current coach, Scott Raczko, is the same one she had when she first ran professionally out of college.  So not really new coaching.

             

             

            https://youtu.be/EQJ1xByP0no

            This is the interview I was referring to. At 37 minutes they start discussing drug testing/doping and at 43 minutes they talk about the 10 mile AR. Unless I am misinterpreting, she says that she paid for her testing at the

            Up Dawg 10 Miler. Although, if she put the race on would she have paid for everyone’s drug testing?

             

            She definitely says that she paid for the drug testing.    Again - my understanding was that she wanted to, but couldn't, so other orgs stepped in.  Perhaps she repaid them?  She would definitely be the authority on this, not me.

             

            I am 99% sure the other participants in Up Dawg weren't tested.  A friend of mine was one of the other women in that race, so I can ask her.

             

            She also clearly says that Missoula was her first marathon.  And I'm going to retract my statement about Marine Corps 2012 being her first.  If you look up the pictures from that race, she gave her bib to someone else....

             

            Hermosa - I believe some people are speculating about Sara Hall for the exact opposite reason - that she's been training and running professionally for so long, and is just breaking through now?

             

            Which is both a valid point and also demonstrates that basically ANYTHING can be construed as evidence of doping.

            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

             

            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

            Running Problem


            Problem Child

               

              What if I'm older and slower?

               

              You’re not a threat so when you catch up to me it’s because you e been doping. Remember, if you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying.

              Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

              VDOT 54.9

              5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

              darkwave


              Mother of Cats

                My week:

                61 miles running, 3 hours pool-running, and ~1500 yards swimming.

                M: upper body weights/core and 90 minutes of pool-running
                T: 12 miles, including 8 Iwo Jima hill repeats (~2 minutes uphill, 80 second jog, 40 second downhill stride, 60 second jog is one rep). Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming. Dry needling of legs in afternoon.
                W: Streaming yoga and 10 miles very easy outside (9:25) plus drills/strides. Deep tissue massage in afternoon.
                Th: 90 minutes pool-running and upper body weights/core.
                F: 12 miles on the treadmill, including a tempo workout of 4x7:30 at tempo effort (6:58 pace for each) with 90 second jog in between. Full recovery and then four short (30 second) intervals at between 9.5 and 10 mph with 90 second jog to work on turnover. Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
                Sa: 9 miles easy on treadmill (9:31), upper body weights/core and then 3 miles very easy outside (9:29) plus drills.
                Su: 15 miles progressive, split as first 5 averaging 9:18, next 5 miles averaging 8:08, next 5 miles averaging 7:16. Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 meters recovery swimming.

                 

                Played with holding my core stable this week - I do this by a) doing the Dicharry ""Chair of Death" exercise to get my core aligned properly, and then tape my torso so that the tape pulls at my skin whenever I lose the alignment.  The stable core really seems to help - I noted significantly improved paces on many of my runs for the same effort.

                 

                I saw the physiatrist on Thursday and finally got the results for my lumbar/pelvic MRIs from two weeks ago.  They're fairly good - a bit of narrowing where the nerves exit the spine, but nothing significantly changed from 18 months ago.  However, the physiatrist offered to do an epidural at L5 - the idea is that if that improves things, then we've got some answers. I have that scheduled for Thursday morning but am going back and forth on whether to get it - mostly because I'm not a big fan of cortisone shots.

                 

                The physiatrist also reviewed my previous MRI of brain/spine and REALLY thinks I need a second neurology opinion.  Which is consistent with my experience that EVERYONE except the neurologist thinks this is neurological...

                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                 

                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                HermosaBoy


                  Date ▲ Activity Type Distance Duration Pace Notes  
                  1/17/2022 Run Easy 7.0 mi 56:05 8:01 Surprised I am not that sore today after the run in the snow and the weights yesterday. Smile  
                  1/18/2022 Run Easy 6.0 mi 45:00 7:30 Easy before weights  
                  1/19/2022 Run Interval 7.1 mi 51:12 7:16

                  2x 3,2,1 with 2' recovery:

                  Set 1: 5:45, 5:35 and 5:18 Set 2: 5:42, 5:33 and 5:15 Good workout -- legs didn't feel beat up from runStrong while running. Smile

                   
                  1/20/2022 Run Easy 4.0 mi 31:36 7:53 Warm-up for weights  
                  1/21/2022 Run Easy 7.0 mi 53:06 7:36 Visions of track meets dancing in front of me -- oh yeah, watching races...  
                  1/22/2022 Run Strides 8.0 mi 59:55 7:29 A run, very similar to any other run... Strides @ 5:13/mi. pace  
                  1/23/2022 Run Long 12.0 mi 1:24:38 7:03

                  30 minute tempo starting @ 6:40/mi. and getting faster every 10 minutes.

                   

                  Solid run!!! Felt fairly solid during the tempo portion. VERY happy with the heart rate.

                  Total 51.13        

                   

                  And you can quote me as saying I was mis-quoted. Groucho Marx

                   

                  Rob

                    Weekly for period: From: 01/17/2022 To 01/23/2022

                    Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                    in ft
                    01/17 Sloppy snow 6.27 10.08 00:48:32 07:44 04:49 469
                    01/18 Quick lift before run 0.00 0.00 00:15:00 00:00 00:00 0
                    01/18 Yeah new rule: no lifting before a run 2.13 3.43 00:20:01 09:24 05:50 197
                    01/19 2 x 10 minute tempo, 3 min rest between 6.35 10.21 00:46:13 07:17 04:32 443
                    01/20 Snowy wife run 2.04 3.28 00:19:58 09:47 06:05 180
                    01/21 Another little down week shake out 2.12 3.41 00:16:40 07:52 04:53 187
                    01/21 Another wussy lift 0.00 0.00 00:15:00 00:00 00:00 0
                    01/22 Ice Ice Baby 10.35 16.65 01:21:50 07:54 04:55 915
                    01/22 More with the wife 2.17 3.50 00:20:01 09:13 05:43 194

                    Total distance: 31.42mi

                     

                    My first "down" week since I started building up. Plan was 25 miles this week but oh well. Didn't really feel like I needed it, but took it easy out of caution. Home all week with my daughter who had covid. No worries, she was fine after a day of light symptoms and no one else seems to have attracted it. I tested negative again tonight (decided to test since I did not quarantine from her as her caregiver). Looking forward to being back in school teaching and back into a solid training week next week.

                     

                    Tempo work felt easy, could have done several more sets of 10 minutes. Averaged around 6:39 on the downhill and around 6:50 uphill. 

                     

                    10 miler was cake even with the vert and the ice. It was nice having a running partner for once. The plan is to have a partner for most of my long runs. Hope that continues to work out.

                     

                    I'm continually inspired seeing everyone else's training!

                    Next Races: Fools Run 10 mile (4/2/22), York Marathon (5/15/2214/23), Stupid Marathon TT (June 2022)

                    Fishyone


                                   
                      Week 13            
                                   
                      Date Name Miles Duration Avg/Mile Notes  
                      1/17 morning run  10.34 1:30:16 8:44 Cold.  Tired legs  
                      1/18 Morning run 13.2 1:55:00 8:43 Forgot watch.    
                      1/19 Week 14 Q2 16.91 2:16:42 8:05 8E + 8 x (1K I w/ 2min jog) +2E  I pace 6:35  
                      1/20 Morning Recovery 7.63 1:09:18 9:05    
                      1/20 Afternoon run 7.61 1:03:05 8:18    
                      1/21 Lunch run 11.11 1:31:39 8:15    
                      1/22 Morning Run 12.05 1:38:59 8:13 COLD!!  
                      1/23 Wee 13 Q1 22.01 2:59:19 8:09 Steady 22 E  
                                   
                        Total: 100.86        
                                   
                                   
                                   

                       

                      Last week of mileage increases.  Will drop back a bit this week with a 16 mile race coming on Sunday.  Initial plan is to try to run it as a MP workout but we'll see. The last 1K segment of the Daniels Q 2 workout absolutely destroyed me.  I was exhausted and into a huge headwind.  Needless to say I didn't hit the pace........

                      5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                      Fishyone


                        Date ▲ Activity Type Distance Duration Pace Notes  
                        1/17/2022 Run Easy 7.0 mi 56:05 8:01 Surprised I am not that sore today after the run in the snow and the weights yesterday. Smile  
                        1/18/2022 Run Easy 6.0 mi 45:00 7:30 Easy before weights  
                        1/19/2022 Run Interval 7.1 mi 51:12 7:16

                        2x 3,2,1 with 2' recovery:

                        Set 1: 5:45, 5:35 and 5:18 Set 2: 5:42, 5:33 and 5:15 Good workout -- legs didn't feel beat up from runStrong while running. Smile

                         
                        1/20/2022 Run Easy 4.0 mi 31:36 7:53 Warm-up for weights  
                        1/21/2022 Run Easy 7.0 mi 53:06 7:36 Visions of track meets dancing in front of me -- oh yeah, watching races...  
                        1/22/2022 Run Strides 8.0 mi 59:55 7:29 A run, very similar to any other run... Strides @ 5:13/mi. pace  
                        1/23/2022 Run Long 12.0 mi 1:24:38 7:03

                        30 minute tempo starting @ 6:40/mi. and getting faster every 10 minutes.

                         

                        Solid run!!! Felt fairly solid during the tempo portion. VERY happy with the heart rate.

                        Total 51.13        

                         

                         

                        Great paces....what I wouldn't give to see a 5 at the beginning of any of my paces... Oh well I guess I can't miss what was never there 

                        5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                        darkwave


                        Mother of Cats

                          1/19 Week 14 Q2 16.91 2:16:42 8:05 8E + 8 x (1K I w/ 2min jog) +2E  I pace 6:35  

                           

                          Last week of mileage increases.  Will drop back a bit this week with a 16 mile race coming on Sunday.  Initial plan is to try to run it as a MP workout but we'll see. The last 1K segment of the Daniels Q 2 workout absolutely destroyed me.  I was exhausted and into a huge headwind.  Needless to say I didn't hit the pace........

                           

                          That's 5 miles of work at I pace as part of a 17 mile run.  Brutal.  Though I guess if you are sustaining 100 mile weeks you have the mileage to handle that volume of I work.

                          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                           

                          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                            Forgot my watch this morning.  Easy run scheduled so not a huge deal but it is strange to run completely unaware of pace.

                             

                            Darkwave- you mentioned a website that had shoe reviews, could you post that again?  I use Clifton 7s for some recovery runs and like them but am looking for other cushioned options.

                             

                            BTW, very late response, but Shoe Reviews (2022) - DOCTORS OF RUNNING is my favorite.

                             

                            Other ones that a lot of people go to are Road Trail Run and Believe in the Run.  Or you can just hit up the "Running Shoe Geeks" groups on Reddit or Facebook.

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            AceHarris


                              Trying to catch up on the page a bit after some busy non-running days.

                               

                              As the main topic has been the validity of Keira's results I guess I'll put in my opinion. I wouldn't say I pay close attention to elite racing outside of Olympics and the major marathons, but her result did not compute for me. The biggest flag for me is the progression. Like dwave mentioned the typical curve is steep then flattens out and hers would almost be the opposite which doesn't make a lot of sense physiologically. My hope is that it's always a clean and impressive performance, so I suppose it is unless more information is discovered. Could it also be true that in her progression from injury there was some form of doping to aid recovery and now she is reaping the benefits of some of the physiologic changes doping can provide? Who knows.

                               

                              Anyways, I'd rather discuss the mere mortals in this thread. Nice weeks to all of you. Looks like some good progress is being made

                               

                              JT: never heard of the booty sprout, I guess I'll be googling that later.

                               

                              Fishy: training looks to be going well. Nice work.

                               

                              Turns out my achilles issue was/is more than a little nag. Just kept getting a little worse. It's quite frustrating that a 2-3cm area of the body can halt your progress. Went to PT last week. Other than the obvious achilles issue my right ankle is apparently quite lax. This may have led tot he achilles issue as on the misstep onto the bridge I lacked the ankle stability and put more load into the achilles? I'm working on cross training and mixing in some running. Got up to 55 minutes of run/walk on Saturday. Currently running from 7:00-9:00 doesn't really make a difference in the pain, it's just the duration of running. Anything more than 15-20:00 running brings the pain back. Hopefully a few weeks will do the trick. Obviously not running my half marathon this weekend and I may need to change Napa to the HM, but we'll wait to make that call.

                              Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 17:09 (2021), 10k: 35:54 (2021), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:53:18 (2021)

                              zebano


                                I'll drop the high level overview of my training here since it seems silly to duplicate the HM stuff though it feels silly to post here 8 months out from a race.

                                 

                                7 hours / 48 miles running between 8:15-9:15/mi pace including a 90 minute run and a 120 minute run. 3 hours of xtraining on the bike. This is basically where I wanted to get to in January, in February I'll start doing some workouts as well.

                                 

                                Regarding Kiera, I find it suspicious but I've been suspicious of almost all records since Lance Armstrong got busted. I just don't have any faith that someone racing for money is clean, especially not at that age.

                                 

                                Solid weeks out of most of you, I wish I had your speed but there's no sense pining for what isn't thee.

                                 

                                Ace best of luck I've found achilles and hamstring issues to linger forever.

                                 

                                I too will only be googling "booty sprout" on my personal devices when not connected to a network at work.

                                1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)