2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 389 times)

JMac11


I spilled the milk

     

    Yes, BUT....

    My main training goals are always two marathons every year, when healthy. I really enjoy 5k/10k/HM distance, but sometimes it's hard to squeeze those in. The latest marathon plan I had built for me includes a tuneup half but that's it. That's what I did for my CIM cycle last fall. I was going to use the same plan for Chicago this fall, but decided I am going to get in whatever fun shorter stuff I want. I'd like to do my best at Chicago, but decided it's worth the sacrifice (if there is any). I'm still using the plan as a guideline, but just considering the races as workouts, and adjusting accordingly. A race is a great workout, right?? I am going to miss some LRs due to races on weekends, but so be it - I think my base is solid enough for the distance. And anything HM or below, you don't need too much taper/recovery anyway. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

     

    The tune up half is a must in my opinion. It's totally worth the down week, and more importantly, you shouldn't be doing 12-15 straight weeks of marathon training without a down week (or three) anyway, so why not use that down week to run a race? For me, it's the mental training: no training really prepares you for the mental pain of racing, and if you don't practice at it, your marathon could be pretty rough.

     

    Also, I've said pure LRs (20+) are overrated, so I'm on board with your story 

    5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

     

    Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (8/27)

    Ian5


      How many miles would you run in the week of the half,I'm hoping 2x60m weeks then the week after that race a half.

      Edited to say the half will be 3 weeks out from Antwerp.

       

       

      The tune up half is a must in my opinion. It's totally worth the down week, and more importantly, you shouldn't be doing 12-15 straight weeks of marathon training without a down week (or three) anyway, so why not use that down week to run a race? For me, it's the mental training: no training really prepares you for the mental pain of racing, and if you don't practice at it, your marathon could be pretty rough.

       

      Also, I've said pure LRs (20+) are overrated, so I'm on board with your story 

      5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

      JMac11


      I spilled the milk

        How many miles would you run in the week of the half,I'm hoping 2x60m weeks then the week after that race a half.

        Edited to say the half will be 3 weeks out from Antwerp.

         

         

        3 weeks out is always tough because then you have the taper after, so you can't cut as much as you would if you did a tune up half 5-6 weeks out, which is why I like them more (you take the down week, then go back up for a couple more week, then taper). For those, I do 70% cutback. However, for the week prior to taper, you probably shouldn't more than 20% (so 80%)

         

        If darkwave is around, she may be able to chime in more as I know she likes the tune up half 3 weeks out. She may have a different view.

        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

         

        Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (8/27)

        Running Problem


        Problem Child

          What would be wrong with running the same number of miles, with no workouts, the week of the half and entering taper? While not the same, Hanson's JD2Q seems to have a lot of hard runs around the same time and I'd say a half marathon raced all out would be as hard as those workouts. Recovery day per 3k...1 week recovery then a 2 week taper. It would end up being one of your final workouts unless you push for one Thursday/Friday and shorten up the recovery.

          Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

          VDOT 54.9

          5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

          DavePNW


            How many miles would you run in the week of the half,I'm hoping 2x60m weeks then the week after that race a half.

            Edited to say the half will be 3 weeks out from Antwerp.

             

             

            I agree with JMac, I would’t cut back too much, maybe still around 50. You can front-load the week a little.

            Dave

            JMac11


            I spilled the milk

              What would be wrong with running the same number of miles, with no workouts, the week of the half and entering taper? While not the same, Hanson's JD2Q seems to have a lot of hard runs around the same time and I'd say a half marathon raced all out would be as hard as those workouts. Recovery day per 3k...1 week recovery then a 2 week taper. It would end up being one of your final workouts unless you push for one Thursday/Friday and shorten up the recovery.

               

              I think you'd go into the race very flat: you will still be tired from running all the miles, but lose sharpness because you've done no workouts. It's the same reason regular tapers reduce the mileage but keep the workouts, albeit at a smaller number. But if you're just doing it as a tune-up and not an all out race, this could work (and does help preserve the main goal, the marathon)

               

              If I have a Sunday half marathon, I'll do my workout on Tuesday (instead of Wed/Thurs), and also reduce the workload by approximately how much I'm cutting in mileage. So if I'm normally doing something like 4x2 mile cruise intervals in a normal week, I might do 3x2 the week of a half marathon tune up.

              5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

               

              Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (8/27)

              SteveChCh


              Hot Weather Complainer

                Keen - Those pesky races indeed...I don't mind the taper and the race itself, it's the recovery which I find a bit hard.  Of course, not doing that properly is a good way to completely screw up training.

                 

                RP - Fair enough about being focused on the marathon distance.  I think you could go hard at both as long as you manage the recovery well from CIM.  That would tie in with the worst of the winter right?  (I think you get a proper winter where you are?)

                 

                Interesting points about race pace.  For me, race pace workouts are about my target race pace.  If I keep failing workouts I'll adjust it down.  But yeah, I think it would even be reasonable to say that what you achieve in your race is your race pace for that day only.  It's not like you can go out and do it again in the days or weeks after the race (assuming a half or full is the race in question).

                 

                JMac - Obviously our winter is nowhere near as bad as yours, but I'm really sick of slip sliding through ice, or having to go on busy roads to go round lakes on the bike path.  Admittedly it has been a wetter than usual winter, but no snow yet.  There is some forecast from Sunday but these days we never get enough to make running impossible.  I'm with you on sleeping being great during winter, with the cold and extended hours of darkness.

                Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                Race plan:  Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022

                DavePNW


                   

                   I've said pure LRs (20+) are overrated

                   

                  It’s funny you say this. My official training plan gives me a 15 mile progression as my LR this weekend. But I was feeling like I just need to lay down a 20. It’s 9 weeks till race day, and while I’ll be getting in plenty of speed, I won’t likely be able to get in a straight-up long one for another few weeks (because reasons*). I’m meeting up with my running group Saturday. It’s a big group (can be 80-100); people post their planned distance/pace on a Meetup page and form sub-groups to run together. Today a guy posts a 15 mile progression, at paces that would probably work for me. Am I being sent a message? I think that would be a lot more fun than a plodding 20. I don’t have to decide till then, but I’m leaning towards it.


                  * Next weekend I’m racing a 10k on Sunday. If it was Saturday I’d still do a LR Sunday, but as it stands, I won’t get one at all. The following Sunday is my best chance for a tuneup half. I haven’t signed up yet; I’d really like to run it especially since I’m at a pretty good fitness level right now. But not sure I should, because the following weekend (starting Friday) I’m running 3 legs on a Hood to Coast Relay team. A lot going on, and I want to do it all! After that, I swear I’ll get back to marathon training. Just in time to start tapering.

                  Dave

                  Ian5


                    This is closest to what I usually do.

                    The last half is 3 or 4 weeks out depending on what I can race.

                    If its 3,I do my last 20 4 weeks out then taper after the half,I've done more miles in a cycle than before so I'm definitely doing a 3 week taper as my legs are starting to feel it now.

                    I was thinking next 2 weeks are 62-65,then 55 ending with the half and just accept I would be a minute or 2 faster if I was fully rested for the half and factor that in.

                     

                    What would be wrong with running the same number of miles, with no workouts, the week of the half and entering taper? While not the same, Hanson's JD2Q seems to have a lot of hard runs around the same time and I'd say a half marathon raced all out would be as hard as those workouts. Recovery day per 3k...1 week recovery then a 2 week taper. It would end up being one of your final workouts unless you push for one Thursday/Friday and shorten up the recovery.

                    5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

                    flavio1980


                    Intl. correspondent

                      Dave - I find planks boring and I can’t see why you’d do that for 5 minutes 😂

                      L-sits on the other hand are fun and pack a punch!

                       

                      Keen - Yeah, I find that as I increase my intake of protein there’s less space for sugary foods.

                      I just need to find appetising non sugary foods to snack.Considering my genetics (so many people with diabetes in my family) I should stay well away from foods with excessive sugar.

                       

                      RP - My opinion does not belong on this forum but I find the Spanish government a bit pathetic.

                      To find race pace I race. Then extrapolate paces from the race results.

                       

                      Me - I take longer than most of you to recover from races, so gotta plan it well.

                      From past experience it's a couple of days for a 1500, 4 to 5 days for a 5k, maybe 8 days for a 10k and 2 weeks + for a half marathon.

                      And apparently 6 months for a marathon 😁

                      PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

                      Up next: Some 5k race in September

                      Tool to generate Strava weekly

                      CommanderKeen


                      Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                        Flavio - Yup, protein definitely helps drive satiety.
                        Is there some particular taste or texture you want in a snack?


                        RP - What about front-loading more miles the week of a HM and perhaps doing a mini (~1/2-2/3) workout on Tuesday, or just doing some strides a couple times that week? That way you get most/all of your usual mileage, keep a bit of speed so you're not flat, but also have a couple days of reduced mileage leading into the race?

                        5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                         

                        Upcoming Races:

                         

                        Riverside 5000 - 8/13

                        Wurst Race Half - 10/8

                        CIM - 12/4

                        Running Problem


                        Problem Child

                          JMac Gotcha. I totally get the flat feeling going into a race. (i had a much longer post eaten by the internet). I also don't do exactly what you say (down week) for marathon training. Maybe my down week is every week I don't have a race.

                           

                          Steve I think if I went hard and raced CIM I'd just casually hobby jog Boston and enjoy the party as well as the less stressful marathon prep. I'm sure people would be shocked to watch me casually jog 50 mile weeks in snow/rain/wind as my only training for Boston and run something like a 3:35.

                           

                          Long runs I think 20 mile long runs have their place. Time on feet, but also more for the beginning marathoner to build some kind of mental confidence. At the same time, I think they're overhyped and the emphasis put on mile 20/the wall should be more focused on training consistency. I did 20 milers with my running buddy during my last cycle and it was mostly us doing our morning run chatting. The 3 hours wasn't really a problem until it was about 8:20 when we left to rejoin our families and both had about a 20 minute drive to get there.

                           

                          Flavio I think I'm on a similar recovery time frame from marathons. You should try ultra marathons. Much faster recovery. Unless you get sick.

                           

                          Ian I wouldn't do a 20 miler the week before a half marathon race even if I could do it in 2 hours. 15 tops. Also, I don't do tune up races for my marathons and I don't like 20 milers because of how much time they take. For me a half marathon 3 weeks before race day would be followed by a week of easy running, and 6-7 days after the race I'd do a tempo workout focused on the marathon.

                           

                          race pace I wouldn't use an 8 month old race to determine a workout pace. I wouldn't even consider it race pace. The asshole in me hopes this guy injures himself just enough he can't run Boston 2023 simply because he wouldn't try to requalify. He'd go through life saying he was injured and marathon training was too hard on his body when the data says overuse injury combined with an avoidance of medical advice. Yes I needed to say that.

                           

                          I almost did a speed workout yesterday.

                          Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                          VDOT 54.9

                          5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                          JMac11


                          I spilled the milk

                             

                            It’s funny you say this. My official training plan gives me a 15 mile progression as my LR this weekend. But I was feeling like I just need to lay down a 20. It’s 9 weeks till race day, and while I’ll be getting in plenty of speed, I won’t likely be able to get in a straight-up long one for another few weeks (because reasons*). I’m meeting up with my running group Saturday. It’s a big group (can be 80-100); people post their planned distance/pace on a Meetup page and form sub-groups to run together. Today a guy posts a 15 mile progression, at paces that would probably work for me. Am I being sent a message? I think that would be a lot more fun than a plodding 20. I don’t have to decide till then, but I’m leaning towards it.



                             

                            I think you do need 3 long runs of 2.5 to 3.0 hours in a cycle. 5 would be ideal, but 3 is enough. But some plans have 10+. For seasoned runners (which most of us are), we don't need more endurance. We need all the other stuff.

                             

                            Flavio - what do you mean by recover exactly? 2 weeks for a half is a bit concerning. When I say recovery, I don't mean that I could race again, but rather that I could probably hit my target workout paces. For a half, that's about 7 days. I could see 10 days. 14 days is crazy long.

                             

                            Steve - I actually would rather take 25-30 degrees and full sunshine over low 40s with clouds/rain every day. What depresses me most about the winter is the darkness, and if its super windy. So adding no sunshine to very short days would be very hard on me. But a nice 25 degree day with full sunshine and no wind? That's a nice day for a run or even a hike.

                            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                             

                            Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (8/27)

                            DavePNW


                              My typical HM taper/recovery is about half a week. I'll usually eliminate a midweek workout on both ends. But I'll do more or less regular mileage the first half of the taper week and second half of the recovery week. Including long runs the weekend before & after. Two weeks prior & after are normal weeks.

                              Dave

                              SteveChCh


                              Hot Weather Complainer

                                JMac - definitely on the same page there. Colder air with sun and no wind is always my preference. 

                                I thought it was generally accepted that you need 1 day recovery for every mile of hard racing? Like Flavio, I need 2 light easy weeks after a half although after my last 2 I’ve felt recovered a bit quicker, I guess due to my increased mileage and resilience. I still wouldn’t try a hard workout for 2.5 weeks. I’m probably overly cautious after consistently getting injured in the 2 weeks after a race.

                                Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                                Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                                Race plan:  Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022