2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 464 times)

Fishyone


     

    When I ran my life PR time at age of 50, I had a dream training cycle - 3 weeks in row, before 3 weeks of taper, I ran around 108 miles per week - all three weeks included at least 2 workouts a week. Interestingly, it took me only one year to get to 3000 miles per year - you can check my log - second year of running I already ran 3000 miles, the year before PR year I ran 3500 miles. So, I think the mileage is crucial in marathon performance - at least for me. I think, my slowing down last few years is nit only to aging, but to less yearly mileage too.

     

    Fishyone - thanks! continue with training, consistency is the king - I agree with Marky there. I continue to be a proponent of constant smaller improvements - like, if you ran your previous marathon 3:10, I do similar or better training and target something like 3:05-3:06 - not 20 minutes improvement, like many try to target. For me, personally, if I just ran 7:20 pace, I have some confidence that it is real to run 7:10-7:15 pace - confidence and belief is a big part for me in achieving the goal. But I guess, it's just me 

     

     

     CAL- You mentioned some weight loss. 4-5KGs is pretty significant.  I think loosing 10 lbs or so would be very helpful to me at this point.  Did you notice any effects in training or your running while the weight was coming off?  I've always read "don't try to train and loose weight at the same time"  but you seem to have managed it without issues.

    5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

    CalBears


       CAL- You mentioned some weight loss. 4-5KGs is pretty significant.  I think loosing 10 lbs or so would be very helpful to me at this point.  Did you notice any effects in training or your running while the weight was coming off?  I've always read "don't try to train and loose weight at the same time"  but you seem to have managed it without issues.

       

      Unfortunately (or, marathon related, you can say - fortunately), I didn't have a choice. I experienced some life change event, that caused me great deal of stress I think I ever experienced. So, for a month or so, I could not eat well, I just didn't have any appetite, I tried to force eating at times, but I just could not - had a feeling I will vomit. So, in a month or so I lost most of those 10 lbs. Again, it just happened. I looked at a mirror few times, it is scary - I do not remember seen myself that thin. I actually want some weight back, seriously.

       

      But, for marathon purposes, I noticed that I am tired much less lately. And I am not sure, but I also recovering faster - my legs hurting less timewise after the same distance running. But that might be subjective. And I also kind of trying to make some life style changes right now, related to sleep and eating. But it will take some time, in case I will follow them for some time, and hopefully for foreseeable future.

       

       

      Cal-Brilliant on your sandbagging,stunning result,and well done on London,did you get a late entry or already have 1?

       

      Thanks Ian! I've got an invitation from Abbott Marathons Majors in April and just was not sure I will go, due to some life issues and financial expenses. But, at the end decided that it worth doing, plus my daughter really wants to see London. So, that's how it was done Smile

      paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

      Fishyone


        Cal sorry to hear it but glad you feel better now.  Can’t wait to see you compete in abbot in London.  At 5’10 and 170 I’d absolutely lend you a few pounds!

        5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

        cinnamon girl


          We had 5 days booked in Prague a while back so just got back tonight, it also coincided with the Prague 10k last Saturday so it would have been rude to not take Kipruto etc on. Great atmosphere though and the support was incredible, free drinks and massages before and after, massive tech area just for runners, free medal engraving, lots of goodies, and Prague is brilliant for a night celebrating anything.

           

          👍

          2022: Oakland Half 6th F, 1st Master, AG 84%, Lake Merced Half 2nd F, AG 86%

          MM (Houston '12, LA '15, NYC '16, Vancouver '19)

          No carbon plates

          JMac11


          RIP Milkman

            Cal - sorry to hear about your personal stuff. You've had a lot of ups and downs lately in your life. I hope it's only up for the foreseeable future, starting with that race!

             

            Fishy - I remember this about you stopping in every race. Have you ever tried to figure out why that's happening? I know for me, I need to stop drinking all liquids about 2 hours before the race.

             

            Keen - I imagine I've seen probably 1 million people running at this point in my life given many of my runs I see over 1K, and I have never seen anyone wearing that contraption. That thing is comfortable???

             

            mmerkle - one more thing I thought about this morning: you put a lot of stock in your long runs. I remember that from last year when you were saying you were definitely going to run sub 3 based on how well you were running some of them. I think now we're seeing the opposite. Overall, I think you need to look at your training holistically to determine where you're at, and perhaps more importantly, run those tune up races every 3-5 weeks to get a true sense of your fitness.

             

            Flavio - I had some more acai in Hawaii. Very different than what I eat here (in terms of toppings), but still very good.

            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

             

             

            CommanderKeen


            Aspiring Hobby Jogger

              JMac - The only time I've ever seen 1k+ people on a run is during a marathon (and sometimes not even then)!

               

              I fully admit that it looks wonky and uncomfortable, especially the straps that go under the arms. I actually held off on getting one for quite a while because of this. It simply disappears when you put it on, though. No bounce, no chafing (even without a shirt).
              The arm motion to draw/replace the bottle on the move may take a bit of getting used to, but so long as you have a reasonable amount of shoulder flexibility it's a non-issue.
              It's not something I notice at all, but some have complained about water sloshing sounds with having a partially empty water bottle so close to one's head. I've mostly been using an insulated bottle, but I did find a really nifty trick to keeping water cold without it:
              Fill the bottle about halfway at night and put it in the freezer at an angle so that the top of the water is nearly at the mouth of the bottle, then fill it with water in the morning. The large amount of ice surface area helps to keep all the water cold, while at the same time it melts fast enough that you'd never be stuck with solid ice when you want water.

              5k: 18:05 8/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

               

              Upcoming Races:

               

              Edmond Turkey Trot - 11/24

              CIM - 12/4

              Fishyone


                 

                Fishy - I remember this about you stopping in every race. Have you ever tried to figure out why that's happening? I know for me, I need to stop drinking all liquids about 2 hours before the race.

                 

                JMAC--I have thought about it and I think it's because I love coffee and most races are in the morning. I also use the caffeinated cliff blocks and the combo is a natural diuretic LOL I don't normally stop on my lunchtime or afternoon runs so I'm thinking that's it.

                5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                Fishyone


                  JMac - The only time I've ever seen 1k+ people on a run is during a marathon (and sometimes not even then)!

                   

                  I fully admit that it looks wonky and uncomfortable, especially the straps that go under the arms. I actually held off on getting one for quite a while because of this. It simply disappears when you put it on, though. No bounce, no chafing (even without a shirt).
                  The arm motion to draw/replace the bottle on the move may take a bit of getting used to, but so long as you have a reasonable amount of shoulder flexibility it's a non-issue.
                  It's not something I notice at all, but some have complained about water sloshing sounds with having a partially empty water bottle so close to one's head. I've mostly been using an insulated bottle, but I did find a really nifty trick to keeping water cold without it:
                  Fill the bottle about halfway at night and put it in the freezer at an angle so that the top of the water is nearly at the mouth of the bottle, then fill it with water in the morning. The large amount of ice surface area helps to keep all the water cold, while at the same time it melts fast enough that you'd never be stuck with solid ice when you want water.

                   

                  KEEN- I tried a camelback but can never get comfortable with anything on my back.  The fact that you have devised the ideal way to keep it cold is awesome!

                  5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                  mmerkle


                     

                     

                    mmerkle - one more thing I thought about this morning: you put a lot of stock in your long runs. I remember that from last year when you were saying you were definitely going to run sub 3 based on how well you were running some of them. I think now we're seeing the opposite. Overall, I think you need to look at your training holistically to determine where you're at, and perhaps more importantly, run those tune up races every 3-5 weeks to get a true sense of your fitness.

                     

                     

                     

                    That's true, I do emphasize the long runs a lot. Maybe I'm still a bit confused as to their role in marathon training. I understand that the average pace isn't something to stress, but I like being able to pick it up to decent paces in the middle without much strain. Also, since races and long runs tend to be on weekends, how do you reconcile long runs and races in a training block? Double up the day of a race, or just don't worry about it that week? I'm considering the double option with the non race miles being super easy.

                     

                    Also, I sweat a ton as well, but I tend to not drink a lot of water, so maybe that's an issue I need to address. I am someone who can, often literally, wring out my shirt after almost every run if it's 75 + degrees.

                    Upcoming races: NCR marathon (11/26)

                    Running Problem


                    Problem Child

                      JMAC--I have thought about it and I think it's because I love coffee and most races are in the morning. I also use the caffeinated cliff blocks and the combo is a natural diuretic LOL I don't normally stop on my lunchtime or afternoon runs so I'm thinking that's it.

                       

                      I switched to caffeine pils before marathons because it was less liquid with all the same kick. Same result (bathroom stops) before races. Perhaps give it a go and see how it works? A second option is to cut caffeine for 10-12 days then take it on race day. Yes I know what I just said.

                      Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                      VDOT 54.9

                      5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                      Running Problem


                      Problem Child

                        I am shocked at the number of people saying they stop for pee breaks. I hope that isn't the case for your marathons!

                         

                        Keen - highly dependent on weather. Winter long runs? 0 stops, even for 22 miles. Summer? I've stopped as much as 5-6 times for water. I have tried carrying water but there's only so much you can take with you.

                         

                        A running buddy of mine would previously stop with me to take photos.  I was in a few of them urinating.  I’ve also stopped to poop on a run. Not as much fun.

                         

                        edit: also your 4x2T inspired me last night.  I’d actually thought you said you were done with the marathon after grandma’s so I wasn’t expecting to see you’re favorite marathon workout. I’ve been slacking on hanging out here actively.

                        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                        VDOT 54.9

                        5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                        DavePNW


                          mmerkle - re: long runs & races in training. For a HM on either weekend day, I always add 1 mile warmup & 1 mile cooldown anyway, so that’s close enough and becomes my LR. For 5k/10k, ideally they are on Saturday, then you can still do your LR on Sunday. It’s going to suck a little, but it’s manageable. If the race is Sunday, that’s more problematic. LR the day before will screw up the race. You can add a bunch of postrace miles, but that’s gonna suck a lot. I ran a Sunday 10k this cycle; I just skipped a LR that weekend. I don’t think it’ll kill me.

                          Dave

                          mmerkle


                            mmerkle - re: long runs & races in training. For a HM on either weekend day, I always add 1 mile warmup & 1 mile cooldown anyway, so that’s close enough and becomes my LR. For 5k/10k, ideally they are on Saturday, then you can still do your LR on Sunday. It’s going to suck a little, but it’s manageable. If the race is Sunday, that’s more problematic. LR the day before will screw up the race. You can add a bunch of postrace miles, but that’s gonna suck a lot. I ran a Sunday 10k this cycle; I just skipped a LR that weekend. I don’t think it’ll kill me.

                             

                            Gotcha. I'm more concerned about things like 5k or 10k. I wonder if it just takes some experimenting. To be honest if I had to pick I would pick doubling on race day. A long run the day after a race seems both physically and mentally taxing, but I'm going to play it by ear this coming week. I feel like if I can turn a 10k into a 10-12 mile day then that's good enough maybe.

                            Upcoming races: NCR marathon (11/26)

                            JMac11


                            RIP Milkman

                              I think the fact that you are worried about missing a long run shows that you are putting too much emphasis on them (I mean that as feedback, not criticism). "True" long runs, i.e. runs that last about 2.5 to 3.0 hours, do not need to be completed every week. I do them as infrequently as every 3 weeks, but that is because I am getting in a ton of medium long runs with quality in, around the 2.0 hour range. Some coaches do have you doing more traditional long runs, but even there, it's more like 2 out of every 3 weekends.

                               

                              I will also say I used to make the same mistake as you. Darkwave was the person who gave me the best advice with races a few years ago, pointing out that they are not some wasted effort, especially half marathons as they are a great LT workout. For a 5K, you can easily do a long run the next day, just taking it easy the entire way (e.g. go out for 2.5 hours at MP+15% to MP+20%, no need for any pickups). 10Ks are a bit awkward, but again, I wouldn't worry about losing anything. I know Pfitz often does 10Ks with a long run the next day.

                               

                              Another one of my favorite pieces of advice I heard is this: as a runner, you are not just two lungs and a heart moving to a finish line. The mental part of running is too often neglected. I heard this piece of advice more specifically when it came to the importance of marathon pace running, as there is a lot of debate about whether there is any physical benefit to them (i.e. they basically are an easy run that is done too hard as they don't hit any of the other critical training paces). But you complete them because they teach your mind how to run relatively hard for long distances at a steady pace.

                               

                              The exact same thing is true for racing. We run tune up races in order to test our fitness, but we also run them because it reminds our mind how hard it actually feels. We call them rust busters because you can truly get rusty if you haven't raced in a while: you don't remember what you are supposed to feel like at different points in the race, so you rarely get the pacing correct throughout. By running tune up races, we teach our mind how much "pain" we are supposed to be in at various points, which can be a huge comfort throughout your marathon.

                               

                              It can even help in training: I had a very difficult 4x2T workout (thanks RP for the shoutout) two days ago. I thought I was completely done after the third rep. But when I started the last rep, I asked myself: "does this feel as bad as it did at the end of your 10K two weeks ago?" And I immediately said no, I could probably pick up my pace if I really had to, like you do in the last mile of a race. That told me I was fine, and that I could definitely complete the last rep.

                               

                              Now, that is my mental part of racing and how I get through things. Everyone has different ways. The broader point is that you need to shift your marathon training focus to think more holistically about how every part of a training plan will get you to a successful race day, and sacrificing long runs for races is exactly that. Running 14 long runs instead of 12 because you raced 2 weekends will have absolutely 0 impact on your endurance. But those 2 races can make a huge difference on your mental strength, because no matter how hard a long run it is, it's just not as red line hard as a race is.

                               

                              TL;DR - don't worry so much about long runs and race more, your brain will thank you during the marathon.

                              5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                               

                               

                              DavePNW


                                 A long run the day after a race seems both physically and mentally taxing

                                 

                                It is! Marathon training is hard.

                                Dave