2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 464 times)

flavio1980


Intl. correspondent

    Keen - I mostly run very early closer to 6am. I also don’t run as much as you.

    That said, I only remember 2 runs where things got ugly due to dehydration.

    I cannot see myself wearing a camel back or a handheld bottle.

     

    Dave - that’s hilarious, I suppose you only run nearby McDonalds restaurants since they always let you use their toilet (been there done that)

    I also had to hit the bushes 2 or 3 times in the past cause there were no toilets around.

     

    Cal - best of luck on your recovery and I hope you can find peace of mind

     

    Jmac - I’m glad you’re keeping the tradition. As a matter of fact I had açaí yesterday, with peanut butter and banana!

     

    Mmerkle - like you mentioned, it's all about the effort. Pace, heart rate and whatever other metrics are secondary.

     

    Ian - Prague is amazing, isn't it? We've been there earlier this year for a Rammstein concert.

    PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

    Up next: 10K Family race

    Tool to generate Strava weekly

    SteveChCh


    Hot Weather Complainer

      Just to follow on from JMac, what do you consider a long run in marathon training?  For me, that's 20+ miles, and I don't think you'd need too many more than 6 which leaves plenty of "down" weeks to do something different.  I don't race as much as JMac, but maybe I will in a future marathon training cycle when I have more experience and, hopefully, resilience.  The marathon training I've done in the last 2 years has really improved how quickly I've recovered after races, which is what I had worried about when planning tune up races.

      Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

      Recent Races:   Melbourne Marathon 3:35:03 October 2, 2022, Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

      Race plan:  Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023, New York Marathon 2024

      mmerkle


        Just to follow on from JMac, what do you consider a long run in marathon training?  For me, that's 20+ miles, and I don't think you'd need too many more than 6 which leaves plenty of "down" weeks to do something different.  I don't race as much as JMac, but maybe I will in a future marathon training cycle when I have more experience and, hopefully, resilience.  The marathon training I've done in the last 2 years has really improved how quickly I've recovered after races, which is what I had worried about when planning tune up races.

         

        So JMac/Steve just to clarify, most of my "long runs" are what you are calling medium long runs, so around 2 hours. Those are the training runs I really like, and like you, JMac, I like the idea of getting a lot of them in. 6 twenty milers actually sounds like a good bit for one cycle. I think last time I only did 2, maybe 3. Maybe I should do more?

         

        But anyway thanks for the thoughts JMac, the mental aspect definitely does matter. I'll try to focus on viewing my training through a broader lens. Lately I've been working on looking at the watch less and trying to feel more. So these are two key things I think I need to work on.

        Upcoming races: NCR marathon (11/26)

        DavePNW


          what do you consider a long run in marathon training?  For me, that's 20+ miles, and I don't think you'd need too many more than 6 

           

          Yikes! I typically do no more than 3 of these per cycle. Although I guess you factor in time - 18 takes me >2.30, and I do a handful of those too. Early in the cycle I do some 16-17. So I have something I consider "long" every weekend, unless some kind of race situation prevents it (system explained previously), in which case I don't worry about it.

          Dave

          DavePNW


             

            Dave - that’s hilarious, I suppose you only run nearby McDonalds restaurants since they always let you use their toilet (been there done that)

            I also had to hit the bushes 2 or 3 times in the past cause there were no toilets around.

             

             

            Starbucks is my go-to. Plus other known options on my regular routes - grocery stores, gas stations, public park restrooms, construction site portapotties. Gotta be open early AM. Also there are usually some woodsy areas along the way, just in case.

            Dave

            Running Problem


            Problem Child

               

              So JMac/Steve just to clarify, most of my "long runs" are what you are calling medium long runs, so around 2 hours. Those are the training runs I really like, and like you, JMac, I like the idea of getting a lot of them in. 6 twenty milers actually sounds like a good bit for one cycle. I think last time I only did 2, maybe 3. Maybe I should do more?

               

              But anyway thanks for the thoughts JMac, the mental aspect definitely does matter. I'll try to focus on viewing my training through a broader lens. Lately I've been working on looking at the watch less and trying to feel more. So these are two key things I think I need to work on.

               

              A challenge someone came up with during 2020 was to do an entire run without looking at the watch. It's shockingly difficult even now after I've done it a few times and I'll occasionally start a run without looking, and see if I can do a "normal" lunch run without looking. Sometimes I can and some times I can't. Still....it is worth giving a go.

              Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

              VDOT 54.9

              5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

              DavePNW


                 

                A challenge someone came up with during 2020 was to do an entire run without looking at the watch. It's shockingly difficult even now after I've done it a few times and I'll occasionally start a run without looking, and see if I can do a "normal" lunch run without looking. Sometimes I can and some times I can't. Still....it is worth giving a go.

                 

                I will occasionally do that on easy runs. (Other than a quick glance to make sure it’s not paused, but without actually reading any of the numbers.) I think I did it today. The weekday ones are all early morning, so it’s even more common during the time of year that they start & finish in the dark, and I’d need to actively turn on the backlight.

                Dave

                Fishyone


                  I know I'm the outlier here but I love my weekend long run.  I'm on week 5 of this cycle and I've done long runs of 18, 20, 18, 20 and planned a 20 this weekend. I find a workout requires much more recovery that a "easy" 20 even with some MP miles thrown in occasionally. I do run them slowly (1-1/2 min/mile slower than MP).  It may be time to change it up as I can't seem to get back to where I was in 2015 (but that was 7 years ago)...

                  5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                  Fishyone


                     

                    A challenge someone came up with during 2020 was to do an entire run without looking at the watch. It's shockingly difficult even now after I've done it a few times and I'll occasionally start a run without looking, and see if I can do a "normal" lunch run without looking. Sometimes I can and some times I can't. Still....it is worth giving a go.

                     

                     RP- Most of my morning run commutes I start the watch and don't look at until the end.  It's proved to be a good gauge of my fittness as a cycle progresses.  Later in the cycle these feel easier and I'm running faster without increasing effort.  In a race forget about it.

                     

                    For the group- Has anyone run a marathon without a watch and if so was it by choice or malfunction/lack of signal?

                    5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                    JMac11


                    RIP Milkman

                      I definitely think there should be a lot of 2 hour runs in a cycle, probably in the range of 15+ runs. The error you see in a lot of people's training is that they think that if they just do a weekly long run of 3 hours, that is "better" than the person doing a lot of 2 to 2.5 hour runs. Almost every coach I've looked at disagrees with that:

                       

                      - Daniels 2Q program means you are generally running 2+ hours twice a week for the entire cycle. He doesn't have any long runs over 21 miles until you hit his 86-100 MPW plan.

                      - Pfitz Advanced Marathoning has the MLR, which for most people means a solid 2 hour run in the middle of their week plus his typical long run that happens approximately 2 out of every 3 weeks. He does include a fair amount of 2.5+ hour runs though, but not weekly

                      - The Hansons are notorious for not having super long runs, and I believe some folks on this thread have had success with them

                       

                      To Steve's question about what a "long" run is: I don't do it by distance, but by time: it's 2.5+ hours. If it's a typical 15 week cycle for me, I'll generally hit about 4-5 of those runs per cycle. I think 3 is a fine number to Dave's point.

                       

                      However, all of that being said, I do not believe someone that has run 8-10 2.5 hour long runs is automatically in better shape than someone who has run 3.

                       

                      If I had to bet on two equal runners by looking at their log of a 12 week cycle (i.e. 9 weeks of training before taper), I'll take the guy who has done 3 "long" runs and 15 MLRs over the guy who did 7-9 "long" runs and nothing else.

                      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                       

                       

                      JMac11


                      RIP Milkman

                        On the watch question: I've said before I feel I need a watch on easy runs, but for the opposite reason: to prevent myself from going too fast. Happened on my easy run today where I felt very good and my pace started going faster than my limit, which is MP+20% (I've found if I run faster than that, my workout suffers the next day even though I "felt" great during the easy run)

                         

                        Fishy I didn't run a marathon, but I did run a 5 mile race this past summer where I forgot my watch at home. I don't think I did a good job. Darkwave is the only one on here who I think races regularly without one (at least looking)

                        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                         

                         

                        SteveChCh


                        Hot Weather Complainer

                          Well, it looks like I did one too many 20+ long runs. 3 stops for cramp and stretching and I’m now lying on the floor unable to move without the most painful cramp I’ve ever had in my life. I thought I’d done everything right diet and nutrition wise this week. I guess I should be happy to have this out of the way and remember the good ones.


                          It’s just a pity it happened on the last one pre-race.

                          Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                          Recent Races:   Melbourne Marathon 3:35:03 October 2, 2022, Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                          Race plan:  Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023, New York Marathon 2024

                          DavePNW


                              

                            For the group- Has anyone run a marathon without a watch and if so was it by choice or malfunction/lack of signal?

                             

                            I’d never do it voluntarily. For my first one I didn’t actually have a watch; I followed the pacer until I couldn’t (16-17), then death-marched the rest of the way in. At another, the Detroit Marathon, there is a 1-mile tunnel going under the river at around mile 7-8. Signal was completely lost there, as well as during another stretch underneath a freeway. My watch was off for rest of the race and I did not like it.

                            Dave

                            Fishyone


                               

                               

                              If I had to bet on two equal runners by looking at their log of a 12 week cycle (i.e. 9 weeks of training before taper), I'll take the guy who has done 3 "long" runs and 15 MLRs over the guy who did 7-9 "long" runs and nothing else.

                              JMAC Very interested in this.  I normally do one MLR @ 13-14 miles a week but many doubles of 7.5 easy in the morning and 7.5 with some fartleks at GA pace in the afternoon.  I can replace some of these doubles with a 13 mile morning commute (train home). Should I replace some of the doubles with the 13 mile single?

                              5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                              DavePNW


                                Well fuck. HM scheduled on Sunday. After a beautiful week of weather, including mornings starting to feel downright chilly and perfect for racing, the smoke is now rolling in. Air quality warnings for the weekend, plus temps back to near 90. Perfect timing.

                                Dave