2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 426 times)

Fishyone


     

    Keen - have you ever tried going out for 20+ miles 4 or 5 hours after a light breakfast, or no breakfast at all? That's when my runs usually blow up at the end because of hunger. If you're able to do 20+ without a breakfast at all, then you really are a calorie freak, and would indicate to me you have absolutely no chance of every truly bonking in a marathon due to gylcogen depletion.

    Does coffee count as breakfast?  All of my Sunday long runs are with 2-3 cups of coffee only.  I do carry fuel in the form of 5-10LBs of extra weight I could loose.... 

    5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

    Fishyone


       

      One thing that I was thinking the other day is that when you're increasing mileage, it's possible that your body craves more calories for a bit while you adapt and then settles back down once you've reached your higher level.

       

       Flavio- No doubt about this for me!! During the first week or two of high mileage I crave ice cream.

      5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

      CommanderKeen


      Aspiring Hobby Jogger

        I remember when we spoke about diet and I was impressed by just how little you actually eat to fuel all that running.

        Quick math here you ran 147km last week, you spend about 50-60 calories per km at the very least, so we're looking at over 7K calories in a week, 1K per day. On top of your baseline which is probably 2500 (since we're both about the same size). It's quite a lot of calories to consume and IIRC you don't cheat with junk food either.

        I suppose your body got used to it.

        One thing that I was thinking the other day is that when you're increasing mileage, it's possible that your body craves more calories for a bit while you adapt and then settles back down once you've reached your higher level.

        A little over a year ago I actually did a resting metabolic rate test out of curiosity and my REE + what little else I'd burn just laying around the house is actually right at about 2,500 calories/day and with my running it probably is about 3,500 calories/day. My weight is pretty stable and I don't feel creaky or sore, so I must be eating enough to cover that and prevent me from breaking down.

         

         

        When was the last time Keen ran 0 miles for an extended period of time? He may not even remember what that was like!

         

        I will say when I had my stress reaction last fall, it took a few weeks for my appetite to go down, but it definitely did. I had to tell my wife to stop cooking so much food for dinner. But I definitely don't feel as ravenous now that I'm back at 80+ as I did when I first hit this mileage. I remember in 2019 for CIM, by around 4 PM, the hanger was real. Now, I can usually get by without that pre-dinner snack.

         

        Keen - have you ever tried going out for 20+ miles 4 or 5 hours after a light breakfast, or no breakfast at all? That's when my runs usually blow up at the end because of hunger. If you're able to do 20+ without a breakfast at all, then you really are a calorie freak, and would indicate to me you have absolutely no chance of every truly bonking in a marathon due to gylcogen depletion.

         

        Funny you should ask:

        Part of that was a back/hip alignment issue (non-running caused) and the majority of it was an elk hunting trip to Colorado. Despite what Ilana claims, there are no elk in Colorado.

         

        I've actually ran two marathons fasted and without fuel, but those were 4+ years ago (the spring after the above break). Both essentially just for fun/running with a friend, so I wasn't going for a time. I think I did both of them in ~3:45-50.

        The only time I eat anything before a run is 1) workouts, and 2) LRs with quality and/or testing race day fueling, and those LRs are the only time I take in calories mid-run.

         

        Krash - Nice week, and good on you for pacing a buddy. 22 at Wasatch is a nice little jog!
        I imagine that not listening to someone as experienced in such matters as you is a sure-fire recipe for disaster.

         

        DWave - Thanks for the insight into trails/routes. I'm sure I'll ask about this again in a few months.
        Doing a loop or so around the Mall will likely be a to-do, just to say I've done it, as would a trip or two around Hains Point. I recall you saying before that it floods some and can get icy. I'll certainly check that site for the one, and bring some nano spikes for the other.

         

        Fishy - I wouldn't count coffee as fuel, unless you put some sugar, cream, etc. in it. Even then, you'd have to put a lot in it to serve as any real fuel. Which would also ruin the coffee. 

        5k: 18:05 8/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

         

        Upcoming Races:

         

        Wurst Race Half - 10/8

        Toyota Music Factory Half - 11/13

        CIM - 12/4

        Running Problem


        Problem Child

           

          If you're running under 100 KM per week, are you even running?

           

          Front page material.

           

          Krash well you have 2.3 weeks to start feeling ready. At least you're not concerned about taper pains.

          Your stroll through Wasatch looked pretty epic. Not much smoke over the weekend? John Trent was out there finishing the race as well.

           

          Keen you went sub 4 FASTED?!?!?! Sheesh! First Marathon Runner RP is extremely mind blown you beat him in a race without eating anything before the race.

           

          I'm going to try and do some speed with regular consistency. Thursday was my first M paced workout in close to a year, and I shocked myself being able to hang with the sub-3 crowd for 6 miles. There was no crowd. It was just me. I just had some CIM talk going on earlier in the day and about 1/2 mile into my warm up I wondering what kind of shape I could do and considered aiming for a 7:00/mi pace to play it safe. Typical Marathon RP came out in traditional fashion and said "don't go there unless you're going to go there." The body went along with the mind and the heart was in it. The side stitch was just an added bonus to remember what it REALLY feels like, and figuring out the FEEL of marathon pace took some time. I came home and promptly told the wife "I can still hang. I still got it."

           

          apologies for not posting the weeklies. It isn't because I don't want to. I just had 3 interviews in 3 (work) days along with smoke and life happening. Not much actual running going on. I'm trying to stay consistent though, and part of the consistency includes getting a variety of training.

          Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

          VDOT 54.9

          5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

          DavePNW


              I crave ice cream.

             

            I can make this statement without qualifications.

            Dave

            cinnamon girl


              I'm officially an old woman who doesn't remember where she parked her car. Since moving to my new place about a month ago, and for the runs along the ocean, I've been parking at this one spot and then I finish with a cold dip and cold beer in the Pacific. But apparently I parked at a different spot than usual. Looks very similar but it's like 1/4 mi or so from the usual spot. So near the end of my run when I got to the parking area where I thought my car was (and didn't see it) I thought it had been stolen. There was a guy in his truck and I asked him if he saw anything and he didn't. He called the cops for me and everything. He asked if I needed anything and I said water and he gave me his water. The cop came, picked me up, and was going to take me home when just a minute down the road in a ride in the cop car ... I see my car in this other parking lot. How embarrassing. I am officially. old .. but still fast-ish though as the last mile of the 16 miler was 6:21. It begs the question - do you prefer to keep your mind or your body. LOL

              2022: Oakland Half 6th F, 1st Master, AG 84%, Lake Merced Half 2nd F, AG 86%

              MM (Houston '12, LA '15, NYC '16, Vancouver '19)

              No carbon plates

              flavio1980


              Intl. correspondent

                 

                 

                Keen - have you ever tried going out for 20+ miles 4 or 5 hours after a light breakfast, or no breakfast at all? That's when my runs usually blow up at the end because of hunger. If you're able to do 20+ without a breakfast at all, then you really are a calorie freak, and would indicate to me you have absolutely no chance of every truly bonking in a marathon due to gylcogen depletion.

                So you went outside to run a 20 miler at noon and your last meal was the night before? That explains everything and I'm sure both you and I agree that the problem solves itself the next time 😁

                 

                Fishy - Some months ago I finally realized that most of you guys remain running higher mileage year around except maybe for vacations, so you keep that endurance baseline, you guys are way more developed in your running careers.

                I feel like I'm still developing my endurance, in a way I'm still climbing that mountain and I'm hoping the strength training plus consistency in my running will get me there eventually.

                Can I learn the story behind your screen name?

                 

                Keen - See you didn't need to pay for that test, I could've told you it was 2500 calories LOL

                 

                Cinnamon - Eh, have you never done goof like that before? Cause I remember I forgot to go to my own graduation ceremony and I was only 21 at the time.

                 

                me - a tough workout earlier today with light rain and wet ground, puddles, wet leaves and wind.

                400/800 super sets, 5x (400 @ 5k + 800 @ 10k + 3' rest). The whole 1200s averaged 3:45/km 6:00/mi so I'm happy about it.

                PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

                Up next: 10K Family race

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                Pain is my friend

                  Pacing Wasatch has left me tired combined with my own workouts. There was tons of smoke durning the race. Wasatch is an epic 100 miler but hard. I know I am not over trained for this race.

                   

                   

                  Krash well you have 2.3 weeks to start feeling ready. At least you're not concerned about taper pains.

                  Your stroll through Wasatch looked pretty epic. Not much smoke over the weekend? John Trent was out there finishing the race as well.

                   

                  ATY 24   141.445 2019

                  Bear 100 22:08 2021 

                   

                  Revolution run 5 hours Jan 1 2022- 36 miles 1st

                  Jackpot 100 Feb 14:59 - 5th

                  Zions 100- 21:24 4th

                  St George marathon Oct 1st 2:58

                  Across the years 24 Dec 31st 

                   

                  JMac11


                  I spilled the milk

                    So you went outside to run a 20 miler at noon and your last meal was the night before? That explains everything and I'm sure both you and I agree that the problem solves itself the next time 😁

                     

                     

                    No I was saying I crash if I went out for that noon run after eating breakfast at 8 am. But apparently Keen is superman and go run a 4 hour marathon with no nutrition! That is just crazy to me.

                     

                    I saw your workout this morning. Well done. Mine was a total disaster: I am trying this whole "run in the morning" thing you guys all love, and my body hates it. I even got up early to use the bathroom, eat some yogurt/fruit/granola. It didn't matter. My 4T felt terrible, and then my stomach totally rebelled in both directions . Had to do the "I just hope I make it home in time" jog. Just gave up on the run after using the bathroom and instead will run some easy miles tonight. Pretty frustrated. When you have such a short cycle, there's a lot of pressure to nail every workout! Much easier to brush them off in a 15-18 week cycle.

                     

                    Fishy - another crazy guy! I can do just coffee up to about 16 miles. Then it's game over.

                     

                    RP - good luck with the smoke. Hard to keep up running with that.

                     

                    Cinnamon - tough question on mind vs. body! I've already noticed serious decline in my ability to remember names especially. It's scary. The thought of having dementia/alzheimer's down the road horrifies me. But so does every serious physical disease. Sad to think about. I hope I'm healthy and of mind and then just have a massive heart attack.

                    5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                     

                    Next Race: Jersey Shore Half Marathon (10/2)

                    Fishyone


                       

                      Fishy - Some months ago I finally realized that most of you guys remain running higher mileage year around except maybe for vacations, so you keep that endurance baseline, you guys are way more developed in your running careers.

                      I feel like I'm still developing my endurance, in a way I'm still climbing that mountain and I'm hoping the strength training plus consistency in my running will get me there eventually.

                      Can I learn the story behind your screen name?

                       

                       

                      Flavio- Endurance I have.....Speed not so much 

                       

                      Fishy came about many years ago.  I'm an avid fisherman and boater who also dabbled in texas no-limit hold-em when the online craze started. The screenname stuck but the poker went by the wayside.  Suffice it to say I'm a better runner than poker player.

                      5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                      Ian5


                        Cinnamon-I've not doing anything that extreme, but in the last year or so I've definitely noticed more occasions of "what did I come in here for"

                        Jmac-When you next update the front page can you add me in for Chicago and the same time goal please.

                        Back running yesterday and today,quads a little sore but overall no issues from Sunday,back to work tomorrow unfortunately.

                        5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

                        Mikkey


                        Elite Jogger

                           

                          Did you register as non-binary?

                           

                           

                          Nope, but it’s interesting (to me anyway) that they decided to go with female BQ times. Big can of worms.

                           

                          Cinnamon - You are over 50yo now and not expected to remember everything. My phone shows me where I’ve parked my car…but sometimes I can’t find my phone.

                          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                          mmerkle


                             

                             

                            I saw your workout this morning. Well done. Mine was a total disaster: I am trying this whole "run in the morning" thing you guys all love, and my body hates it. I even got up early to use the bathroom, eat some yogurt/fruit/granola. It didn't matter. My 4T felt terrible, and then my stomach totally rebelled in both directions . Had to do the "I just hope I make it home in time" jog. Just gave up on the run after using the bathroom and instead will run some easy miles tonight. Pretty frustrated. When you have such a short cycle, there's a lot of pressure to nail every workout! Much easier to brush them off in a 15-18 week cycle.

                             

                             

                            I run in the morning, but I sure as fuck don't love it. I just have no choice given my schedule for some days of the week. I try to do my easy runs on the days I have to run early to avoid the issue you mentioned. Workouts don't go well in the morning. My body isn't awake yet. Not sure if you've tried this, but what helps me avoid stomach/bathroom issues on morning runs, is I first down one or two tall glasses of water while my coffee is brewing. Sometimes the coffee doesn't even finish brewing before that bathroom trip. Usually worst case scenario it takes that first cup of coffee and then it happens. The fail rate for this is probably < 1%.

                            Upcoming races: NCR marathon (11/26)

                            JMac11


                            I spilled the milk

                               

                              I run in the morning, but I sure as fuck don't love it. I just have no choice given my schedule for some days of the week. I try to do my easy runs on the days I have to run early to avoid the issue you mentioned. Workouts don't go well in the morning. My body isn't awake yet. Not sure if you've tried this, but what helps me avoid stomach/bathroom issues on morning runs, is I first down one or two tall glasses of water while my coffee is brewing. Sometimes the coffee doesn't even finish brewing before that bathroom trip. Usually worst case scenario it takes that first cup of coffee and then it happens. The fail rate for this is probably < 1%.

                               

                              I've been running more in the ams this cycle and this has been pretty much the case for me. I even used the bathroom before! I think it's because it was my first quality attempt in the AM (besides races) in years. I also have had little sleep recently because my bedtime hasn't adjusted properly.

                               

                              This is why I'm not going to be running marathons intensely after this one with 2 little kids in the house. I keep trying this morning thing and it just isn't working well. It gives me a lot of respect for the guys out there like keen who has been doing this for years (at 3.5K+ miles per year) with THREE kids in the house.

                              5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                               

                              Next Race: Jersey Shore Half Marathon (10/2)

                              flavio1980


                              Intl. correspondent

                                 

                                No I was saying I crash if I went out for that noon run after eating breakfast at 8 am. But apparently Keen is superman and go run a 4 hour marathon with no nutrition! That is just crazy to me.

                                 

                                I saw your workout this morning. Well done. Mine was a total disaster: I am trying this whole "run in the morning" thing you guys all love, and my body hates it. I even got up early to use the bathroom, eat some yogurt/fruit/granola. It didn't matter. My 4T felt terrible, and then my stomach totally rebelled in both directions . Had to do the "I just hope I make it home in time" jog. Just gave up on the run after using the bathroom and instead will run some easy miles tonight. Pretty frustrated. When you have such a short cycle, there's a lot of pressure to nail every workout! Much easier to brush them off in a 15-18 week cycle.

                                 

                                I can see how that would be difficult if you only had a light breakfast like a toast and coffee. I finished 20 milers before without eating but I did them at 6:30am.

                                Usually I'm able to unload a little before going for my run, foam rolling and a glass of water help with that. But there will be a few times where I find I need to speed up to 10k pace so the blood flushes to my legs and my guts leave me alone for 10 more minutes 😁

                                The thing with running in the morning is that over time you learn that it's preferable to run at 6am or 6:30 am when there aren't so many cars and people around and it's the best time of the day temperature wise as well. However that also means going to bed 9:30 pm and being mocked by all your peers for being an old man LOL. Also, since I have hiatus hernia I cannot have dinner later than 7pm which makes social events in the evenings awkward cause I have to have dinner before going out or else I'll get cranky due to being so hungry.

                                 

                                Fishy - Have you tried dead lifts at around 60-70% of your MAX and doing the lift very explosive on the way up, while lowering the bar slowly to the ground? That gives you a lot of explosiveness and speed. Also, dedicating an entire training block of 7 or 8 weeks exclusively to a 5k helps to get fast 😁

                                 

                                Mikkey - LOL, are you one of those who refuse to place the phone on the front pocket of your jeans pants? My brother is like that and he can never find his phone (or his wallet, cause he still uses a wallet, in 2022).

                                PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

                                Up next: 10K Family race

                                Tool to generate Strava weekly