2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 491 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

    Side bar (but relevant to our recent discussions).  A new guy joined the group I train with this summer.  Nice guy - marathon PR of 3:50, wanted to run 3:30 or even 3:25 at Berlin.  Didn't know too much about training, but seems decently talented.  He got paired with another woman who was targeting 3:25, and they did all their workouts together, including marathon pace workouts (marathon pace for the workouts was between 7:40-7:45).

     

    They both ran Berlin this morning.  She ran 3:28 - a big PR for her and she's thrilled.  He ran (wait for it)

     

    3:08. Split as 1:37/1:31.

     

    There's a lot that can be taken away from this.  But I think the most important point is - you can train for a marathon time that is much slower than what you are capable of, and it's not going to limit you to that time on race day.

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

    SteveChCh


    Hot Weather Complainer

      Kipchoge.  Wow.  I just watched highlights, those pacers in the first half were absolutely gassed.  Perhaps not surprising after running a sub 60 half-marathon.  A local guy, Andy Good, did Berlin (he won the half at the Selwyn event I did last year).  He was targeting a 2:18, after doing a 2:21 in May, but struggled through full body cramps and a massive positive split in 2:43.  Maybe he was in 2:21 shape and tipped over the edge by going for 2:18.

       

      Flavio - Very impressive result on a slow course.  You might even be in better than 38:30 shape given the difficulty of that course.  Also, since when did the Gaga challenge include a sub 40 10km???  I thought it was just a sub 20 5km.

       

      darkwave - Wow, what a result from that dude.  I like the idea of going much faster than expected.  At what point of the race did he go for it?  And interested in yours and others thoughts on when you'd say it's "safe" to go for it, assuming everything feels good.

      5km: 18:53 12/22 │ 10km: 40:49 2/22 │ HM: 1:27:32* 5/22 │ M: 3:35:02 10/22

      *Net Downhill.  Flat course PR:  1:29:25 6/16

      Upcoming Races:

      Motorway Half Marathon February 26, 2023, City to Surf 12km March 19, 2023, Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023

      darkwave


      Mother of Cats

         

         

        darkwave - Wow, what a result from that dude.  I like the idea of going much faster than expected.  At what point of the race did he go for it?  And interested in yours and others thoughts on when you'd say it's "safe" to go for it, assuming everything feels good.

         

        His splits:

        Split min/km km/h
        5 km 04:49 12.48
        10 km 04:39 12.94
        15 km 04:32 13.24
        20 km 04:31 13.30
        Halb 04:24 13.68
        25 km 04:39 12.95
        30 km 04:25 13.63
        35 km 04:16 14.08
        40 km 04:12 14.32
        Finish 04:00 15.05

         

        As for your question - I think that for a first time marathoner it's OK to start taking risks after mile 21-22, but I would wait until then.

         

        Someone who has raced a marathon before and has a better sense of how quickly things can go south can pick it up earlier.  I've raced marathons as 16 miles conservative and then a 10 mile race.  As I'd mentioned, he has raced a marathon before, so I'm sure he knew how much extra he had left in the tank.

         

        I don't know what his exact pacing strategy was for this race, but I do know that we were discussing marathon times a few weeks back and he indicated that he thought 3:15 was really fast and impressive.  And now he's a 3:08 guy.

        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

         

        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

        Mikkey


        Mmmm Bop

           

           

          3:08. Split as 1:37/1:31.

           

          There's a lot that can be taken away from this.  But I think the most important point is - you can train for a marathon time that is much slower than what you are capable of, and it's not going to limit you to that time on race day.

           

          Steve - This should be an inspirational post for you.

           

          I’ve consistently said that you are capable of sub3:10 if weather conditions are ideal.

           

          In the words of Nike….Just do it.

          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

          SteveChCh


          Hot Weather Complainer

            darkwave - Thanks for those splits.  He just kept pushing the pace the whole way and obviously discovering he could do it again and again.  I agree with you on delaying any surge until late in a first marathon.  Given I've had a couple of cramping episodes, I'll be nervous about getting cramp right until the end given I'll be pushing myself further and harder than ever before.

             

            Mikkey - You keep daring me to blow myself up!  Darkwave's advice is sensible I think.  There will be a second marathon, hopefully, to push harder.

            5km: 18:53 12/22 │ 10km: 40:49 2/22 │ HM: 1:27:32* 5/22 │ M: 3:35:02 10/22

            *Net Downhill.  Flat course PR:  1:29:25 6/16

            Upcoming Races:

            Motorway Half Marathon February 26, 2023, City to Surf 12km March 19, 2023, Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023

            mmerkle


              Flavio: Nice race, thanks for the report.

               

              My Week:                                                  Time:          Miles:        Kilos:         Pace/mi:     Pace/Kilo:

               

              9/19: Off, upper body + core

               

              9/20: Easy 10                                           1:18:51        10             16.1           7:54            4:55

               

              9/21: 6 X 1 mile on the track

              with 2 mile WU and CD, 3 min

              walk/jog rests between reps

              6:17,6:06,6:00,5:57,6:00, 5:38                1:07:27         10             16.1           6:45            4:12

              Leg strength work later

               

              9/22: Easy 10                                           1:19:04        10              16.1          7:55            4:55

               

              9/23: Easy 6                                             48:52            6                9.6           8:09            5:04

              strides after

               

              9/24: 18 Mile long run,

              first 80 minutes easy/steady,

              then 6 X 3min fast/2min slow

              then held on for the rest                          2:15:00          18              28.9          7:30            4:40

               

              9/25: Easy 6, very easy,

              legs felt tired but not sore.                       50:07             6                9.6            8:22            5:12

               

              Total: 60 miles, 96.6 kilos, 7:39:21

              Next week is a scheduled down week in the training plan. Next week will be week 8 out of 16. After that I'll start doing some 7 day weeks and will be shooting for 60-70 MPW.

              Marky_Mark_17


                OK, after 2 weeks pretty average training while I was sick, and a very light recovery week (lowest in over 4 years)... I'm back at it.  Gotta say the rest has definitely re-energised me a bit and I'm just glad I was able to shake this sinus infection in a couple weeks rather than the one in late 2020 that took closer to a month.  6 weeks until Nelson Half and with a lot of good training in the bag before this, I'm optimistic that I should still be able to put a reasonable effort in.

                3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                * Net downhill course

                Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

                Up next: Clevedon Country Half Marathon, 5 Feb

                "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                Fishyone


                  My week:

                   

                  Good solid week.  Absolutely loving the fall weather.  Friday's long run was done without a hydration belt. Still no Daniels workouts but the mileage seems manageable.  Mixed a little speed in there on same afternoon runs and the LR Friday.  Tried to cannel my inner JMAC with 2 long runs this week.

                   

                  Date Name Miles Duration Avg/Mile Notes
                  9/19 AM Commute 7.6 1:06:41 8:46  
                  9/19 PM Commute 7.6 0:58:47 7:44 PM with Fartleks
                  9/20 AM Commute 13.0 1:50:46 8:31 MLR AM run
                  9/21 AM Commute 7.6 1:05:57 8:40  
                  9/21 PM Commute 7.7 1:02:28 8:10 Strides
                  9/22 AM Commute 7.7 1:07:47 8:51 Strides
                  9/22 PM Commute 7.7 1:05:59 8:38  
                  9/23 PM Commute 18.0 2:23:45 7:59 MLR 4 @ MP effort
                  9/24 Morning run 7.6 1:06:12 8:42 recovery
                  9/25 Long run 20.0 2:48:03 8:24 Long run Steady effort
                             
                    Total: 104.4      

                  5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                  JMac11


                  RIP Milkman

                    Flavio - it looks like you're in better shape than you thought. Those hills looked brutal and I agree you are easily sub 39 on a flat course.

                     

                    Steve - yes the Gaga challenge was always sub 20 minute 5K but now Flavio has gotten a lot better so he's upped his game to the 10K. Next up: sub 1:30 is the Gaga challenge.

                     

                    How's the body feeling at this point? Ideal is: I don't feel so beat up, but I don't feel great yet.

                     

                    mmerkle - as commented on Strava I think that long run was great. I'd see if your other workouts line up now with sub 3 pace.

                     

                    Fishy - I love how you casually drop a 104 mile week. An 18 followed by a 20 just 2 days later is insane.

                     

                     

                    Had a good long run Sunday after another poor LT effort mid-week. Was supposed to be 3x3T but I was cooked after 2x3T. Sunday's run was one of those where it makes you remember why you love running, when every single mile is getting executed as you wanted. This sport has so many ups and downs. My down is I picked up something in my calf (I think?) at around mile 14 of that run. It bothered me during my recovery today. Will have to keep an eye on it. No cycle is allowed to be completely niggle free, which this one has been so far.

                     

                    I have my usual half marathon tester coming up. My LT indicates I'm in 1:15:50 shape, which is the closet type of workout to half marathon pace. So I have to decide whether I go out at that pace and try to run something like a 1:15:30 if things go well, or I go out faster than any workout has indicated (I've yet to break 5:50 in a workout that is supposed to be at 10 mile pace) and go for a PR, which is 5:42 pace.

                     

                    At the moment, the current forecast kind of sucks for a PR when you're already behind the 8 ball (63 degrees and 62 degree dew point), so it might not really matter. But it's hard to decide whether you should go for the PR at the risk of blowing up when you're not really seeing fitness to indicate you can do it. Decisions, decisions.

                     

                    Weekly for period: From: 09/19/2022 To 09/25/2022

                    Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                    in ft
                    09/19 Lunch Run 11.71 18.84 01:37:04 08:17 05:09 404
                    09/20 9E + 2x3T (5:52) + 3E 18.35 29.53 02:18:39 07:33 04:42 561
                    09/21 Morning Run 6.76 10.88 00:58:51 08:42 05:25 167
                    09/22 Afternoon Run 10.83 17.43 01:23:36 07:43 04:48 390
                    09/23 Well HELLO 98 TDP 😍 11.68 18.79 01:33:03 07:58 04:57 397
                    09/24 Afternoon Run 22.75 36.61 02:40:23 07:03 04:23 807
                    09/25 Lunch Run 6.76 10.88 00:57:00 08:26 05:14 82

                    Total distance: 88.85mi

                    5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                     

                     

                    CalBears


                      Sorry for no comments - feel quite tired this evening Sad.

                       

                      My week was ok, though felt heavy the whole week, last week actually felt so much better than this one, not sure if it's taper effect or something else? Taking some new vitamins, maybe that is the reason for heaviness, who knows. One more week till the race.

                       

                      Weekly for period: From: 09/19/2022 To 09/25/2022

                      Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km  
                      09/19 Afternoon Run 8.23 13.24 01:07:33 08:12 05:06  
                      09/20 6 x 1 mile 400 jog 10.29 16.56 01:17:23 07:31 04:40  
                      09/21 Evening Run 8.24 13.26 01:18:12 09:29 05:54  
                      09/22 Afternoon Run 8.24 13.26 01:18:45 09:33 05:56  
                      09/23 with 10 @mp effort 12.10 19.46 01:27:10 07:12 04:29  
                      09/25 Afternoon Run 8.32 13.39 01:17:10 09:16 05:46  

                      Total distance: 55.43mi

                      paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                      DavePNW


                        This week was a real confidence builder for Chicago, and just at the right time.

                        It was very smoky with awful air quality for my workout on Wednesday morning. It sort of snuck up on us—it was fine the day before, so I didn’t even check before I went out. If I had, I might have bagged it. I definitely felt the smoke, but did the workout anyway. And it ended up going really well. It was McMillan cruise intervals; he says I should target 6:40-6:52. Usually I am around the top of that range; this time I stayed consistently right near the bottom of it, which is about my recent 10k PR pace. Reps 9 &10 got a bit tough, but I held on to the pace. 

                        For my Saturday run—MP for 3:20 is 7:38. Of course with the actual race distance, I really need more like 7:35 or under. After some easy warmup miles, I hooked up with a couple guys from my running group that run in that range for their easy pace. I ended up with 10 miles rock-steady around 7:30. It felt like I was working, but not killing myself. I was very happy with that run. 

                        All there is to do now for the next two weeks is taper, stay healthy, and check the weather forecast every 10 minutes.

                         

                        Weekly for period: From: 09/19/2022 To 09/25/2022

                        Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                        in ft
                        09/19 Morning Run 7.17 11.54 01:02:29 08:43 05:25 328
                        09/20 Morning Run 10.01 16.11 01:28:01 08:48 05:28 463
                        09/21 Smoky! 10x800m w/200m recoveries + 3x200m 11.01 17.72 01:29:19 08:07 05:02 171
                        09/22 Morning Run 6.02 9.69 00:55:14 09:10 05:42 246
                        09/23 Morning Run 9.01 14.50 01:18:53 08:45 05:26 446
                        09/24 10 @ MP 16.01 25.76 02:08:29 08:02 04:59 210
                        09/25 Morning Run 8.12 13.06 01:09:26 08:33 05:19 315

                        Total distance: 67.36mi

                        Dave

                        CommanderKeen


                        Cobra Commander Keen

                          JMac - In general I quite like and agree with your milege>marathon performance chart. There are obviously outliers (as with anything), but I like it.


                          Merkle - I'm also a solo runner. Outside of races I've run a total of 6 miles (one run, rather recently) with another person in the past 4 or 5 years. It's not that I wouldn't run with anyone, there's just literally no one around here to run with.


                          Steve - If you're only looking at one forecast you're handling the taper quite well.


                          DWave - As usual, I like your approach to things. I'm one who absolutely records tons of metrics while running, but hardly ever looks at any of that during a run - it's just for tracking training loads, etc. after the fact.
                          To you point of outliers just running upper-level mileage (and outliers overall) - I've averaged more MPW over the last 3+ years than my coach has ever (he has had issue with stress reactions, etc.). He peaked at 75 miles during his latest cycle but ran just under 2:33 in very not-ideal conditions at Erie. One could consider the both of us outliers on separate sides of things.


                          That new guy's performance is simply amazing. I can't imagine going faster and faster in a race like that and just discovering that I can keep going.


                          Flavio - Nicely done on the race. The late hill looked brutal.


                          Dave - Killer week, and those are some awesome workouts.


                          Eliud MF'n Kipchoge - The marathon GOAT does it again. I do wonder what he could have done with a first half split of 60:15 or so.

                           

                          I enjoyed this week, particularly Wednesday's workout. That was more at HM pace (prescribed by my coach) rather than "adjusting for the atmospheric conditions" HM effort that I've been operating on. My LR I did keep to an adjusted-for-the-conditions effort, which felt fine, but also was a good deal slower than I would have liked.

                          Weekly for period: From: 09/19/2022 To 09/25/2022

                          Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                          in ft
                          09/19 Nothing notable 13.15 21.16 01:52:48 08:35 05:20 699
                          09/19 3 turtles, 1 heron, & 1 hawk 5.00 8.05 00:44:22 08:52 05:31 266
                          09/20 1 heron & 1 owl 10.00 16.10 01:33:22 09:20 05:48 387
                          09/21 3x 2mi @ HMe 14.00 22.53 01:47:59 07:43 04:48 367
                          09/21 1 B-52 5.05 8.13 00:45:46 09:04 05:38 249
                          09/22 DW, DD2, & 1 rabbit 8.01 12.88 01:15:53 09:28 05:53 433
                          09/23 3 deer (3 strides) & 2 rabbits 10.01 16.10 01:23:49 08:22 05:12 377
                          09/23 2 hawks 4.05 6.52 00:37:01 09:08 05:41 207
                          09/24 8 deer (8 miles at the right intensity but wrong pace), 2 owls, & 1 heron 19.16 30.82 02:33:03 07:59 04:58 991
                          09/25 2/22 for good mornings 6.05 9.74 00:54:59 09:05 05:39 341

                          Total distance: 94.49mi

                          5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

                           

                          Upcoming Races:

                           

                          Heartland 50 - May 6

                          Running Problem


                          Problem Child

                            RP-We have a locals only lottery and also a GFA system which is locals only, when I did my GFA I needed a billing address,not just a mailing address though.

                             

                            Are you saying you want to meet IRL and help me out with this whole "London Marathon" thing? 

                             

                            Mileage I think 70 is where I like to live for training mileage because it works with my schedule. It's spread out, kind of. 14-16 mile long runs, 10-13 miles for workouts. The rest I just use to fill in the gaps. I really don't think I ever want to run 100 miles in a week OTHER than to say I've done it. I already spend 8-9 hours running when I do marathon training. 10-12 hours just seems excessive.

                             

                            mmekele yeah I'm the 16 miler. It's directly from Hansons Marathon plan, and probably the biggest reason I've stuck with their training. I hated 20s for my first or second marathon. I'll do them now if I'm prepared, and it's a 3 hour run without counting any sort of driving to a starting point to meet a friend.

                             

                            darkwave wow! Pat THAT guy on the back. Also...."checkers or wreckers" might have its benefits for the second marathoner.

                             

                            flavio Hydroelectric power failure you say...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oroville_Dam_crisis

                            It's pretty scary when the largest water reservoir is going to fail and flood the entire city below it. The "emergency spillway" didn't actually work and had to be "updated/made" during this time. I have family there. I would put this on the same level as a 1970s scary nuclear failure. Thankfully California didn't ban the use of hydroelectric power. They just told people not to power the electric cars they were told by the State to purchase in order to save money on gas....yeah.

                             

                            JMac go for it.

                             

                            Dave bad AQI? Bummer. What fire is blowing smoke your way now? Fire out in Leavenworth?

                             

                            I "last minute" decided to go for another 4x1,200m workout. Instead of using the spreadsheet AND my PR pace I went for something more reasonable. A goal was about 6:10/mi (4:35ish/km) and on number 4 I was trying to calculate what a sub 19 5k would be. It seemed to make sense why I blew up on the last workout regardless of wind, temp, excuses, etc. This seemed more correct to where I'm at. It was progressively hard and the last one was about the same pace as the first. I think they were all within 3 seconds of the goal. I DON'T think I could have pulled another 1,200m out at the pace I was going. I also kind of took it as "the magic of CIM just isn't there." I'm not running CIM this year. I'll be all in for Boston 2023 and an NYC qualifier/PR. I really SHOULD make the goal a 2:54 to push hard. I'll be 40 in 2024 so the appeal of sandbagging a 2:58 is there, and the memories of Boston changing their times right before Chicago still linger.

                             

                            oh yeha, I got into the Boston Marathon, and I'll be running it. Finally. It hasn't been announced by the BAA (WTF?!!??!?! ) probably until AFTER they charge me. The internet says 30k people are in and no time cutoff was needed. I'm kind of excited.

                            Weekly for period: From: 09/19/2022 To 09/25/2022

                            Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                            in ft
                            09/19 THAT….THAT time I didn’t ask the question because I didn’t have the answer. (Edit because errors are my thing). 7.33 11.79 01:02:26 08:31 05:18 354
                            09/20 That time it was the same but different. 7.67 12.34 01:01:36 08:02 05:00 377
                            09/21 That time I ran the alarm time. 5.35 8.61 00:44:15 08:16 05:08 102
                            09/21 That time it didn’t feel like rain. 7.81 12.57 01:01:13 07:50 04:52 361
                            09/22 That time I’m going to try this a second time. 7.01 11.28 00:54:35 07:47 04:50 223
                            09/22 Heavily medicated vs not to your expected standards 1.10 1.77 00:22:50 20:45 12:54 26
                            09/23 That time the challenge is what you make it. 6.10 9.81 00:55:52 09:10 05:42 276
                            09/24 That time everyone was better dressed than me. 14.01 22.54 01:58:24 08:27 05:15 771
                            09/25 That time it’s the inverse of the Murder Mitten. 5.56 8.94 00:48:01 08:38 05:22 184

                            Total distance: 60mi

                            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                            VDOT 52.45

                            5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                            DavePNW


                               

                               

                              I really don't think I ever want to run 100 miles in a week OTHER than to say I've done it. 

                               

                               

                               

                              LOL same for me and I did just that in 2020 (twice actually), when there were no races and I was looking for interesting things to do. I found it was not too bad physically, but UGH what a grind mentally. I never did doubles, basically went out for a 13-15 miler every day. I felt doubles would actually make it harder. And just the amount of time spent running is ridiculous.

                              The smoke is from the Bolt Creek fire, near Skykomish, WA, about 50 miles east of Seattle (a bit west of Leavenworth).

                              Dave

                              Running Problem


                              Problem Child

                                I scheduled another workout. I have 1:40 half marathon pacing duties this weekend so I wanted to get it in early, then relax the rest of the week. Somehow I find 7:35-38/mi pace to be intimidating. Maybe it's just the overwhelming responsibility to pace properly.

                                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                                VDOT 52.45

                                5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07