2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 464 times)

zebano


    Enjoyed this article about Kipchoge's training. It's all very basic stuff (run a ton of miles mostly slow and work in some workouts) but I particularly enjoyed the link to the Kenyan shuffle https://twitter.com/Cathal_Dennehy/status/1450478542957989894 . Amazing to see these athletes "shuffle" along at an 8:30 pace LOL!!

     

     

    https://www.trailrunnermag.com/training/trail-tips-training/kipchoge-training-takeaways/

    The Some Work, All Play podcast by the author and his wife touches on most of this and is very interesting as well, though it has significant personal digressions. In addition to the Kipchoge episode, the interview of Journet and lessons learned the next week are also excellent.

    1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

    mmerkle


      Fishyone: Once again some insane mileage, well done.

       

      My Week (last week, I'm just late) This was week 8 and a scheduled down week.               

       

                                                                                                     Time:             Miles:      Kilos:      Pace/mi:      Pace/kilo:

      9/26: Off, upper body and core

       

      9/27: Easy 8                                                                         61:13                 8              12.8        7:40             4:46

       

      9/28: Fartlek, 20 minutes easy, then

      4 X 6min fast/2min slow, the rest steady                             63:57                  9               14.4       7:07             4:26

      Strength work for the legs later

       

      9/29: Easy 9.5                                                                     1:12:51               9.5             15.3       7:41             4:47

       

      9/30: Easy 7                                                                         55:42                  7               11.2       7:58             5:00

       

      10/1: Long run back in my hometown.

      This is the second time I've had a "quick"

      16 miler in my old neighborhood where

      my parents live. Not the same route either.

      Strange... Anyway this run felt awesome.                           1:55:26               16               25.7      7:13             4:29

       

      10/2: Very easy treadmill run                                               38:55                  4.5              7.2       8:39              5:24

       

      Total: 54 miles, 86.9 kilos, 6:48:04

      Upcoming races: NCR marathon (11/26)

      Fishyone


         

        Yeah I've heard this too. It's just for a bit to get themselves warmed up. I think people like the idea of thinking they can get really fast by running really slow.

         

        I think everyone hears what they want to hear.  Old slow guys like me want to hear we can get fast by running tons of slow miles.  Young fast folks like you and Jmac want to hear it’s all about speed😂

         

        What I took out of it was how very little the “pro” cared about pace at all….it was all about running with purpose.  Slow runs were truly slow (by his standards).  Yes they started ridiculously slow by his standards and would speed up but never to the proportions that I could imagine.  Imagine starting your easy runs at 10 min pace then dropping down to 8 for the majority of the run.  I think DW said it best run by feel. The only time pace was important was during the workout.

         

        this is definitely something I need to work on.  I’m actually considering hiring a coach as a way to keep me accountable when it comes to having a purpose to my training.

        5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

        Fishyone


          The Some Work, All Play podcast by the author and his wife touches on most of this and is very interesting as well, though it has significant personal digressions. In addition to the Kipchoge episode, the interview of Journet and lessons learned the next week are also excellent.

           

          Is this a running podcast? Always looking for a good listen.

          5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

          JMac11


          RIP Milkman

            Fishy I think you're mainly right, but also remember these guys are running 120+ MPW. That would slow anyone down.

             

            The biggest takeaway I had from the article was that it's better to be under trained. That's something we all need to remember when we are missing workouts. It's definitely true with me: I rarely am running the equivalent workouts I should given race times

            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

             

             

            flavio1980


            Intl. correspondent

               I’m actually considering hiring a coach as a way to keep me accountable when it comes to having a purpose to my training.

               

              Kudos for a great week. If you're considering hiring a coach, allow me to put forth a recommendation:

              Brendan Gilpatrick

              Masters degree in exercise science, 8 or 9 years of experience coaching high schools and pros, also tons of people like me who are remote. $70 per month also not the most expensive either. He puts your schedule on Final Surge, Garmin syncs your workouts there. He will comment on your workouts from time to time, to give kudos or adjust direction when needed.

              PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

              Up next: 10K Family race

              Tool to generate Strava weekly

              Fishyone


                 

                Kudos for a great week. If you're considering hiring a coach, allow me to put forth a recommendation:

                Brendan Gilpatrick

                Masters degree in exercise science, 8 or 9 years of experience coaching high schools and pros, also tons of people like me who are remote. $70 per month also not the most expensive either. He puts your schedule on Final Surge, Garmin syncs your workouts there. He will comment on your workouts from time to time, to give kudos or adjust direction when needed.

                 

                Thanks Flavio I'll check it out.

                5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                zebano


                   

                  Is this a running podcast? Always looking for a good listen.

                   

                  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/some-work-all-play/id1521532868

                   

                  yes though with 2 caveats: They're mainly focused on ultras and mountain running and they have a lot of inane and personal banter that often turns me off from listening. I do find them a gold mine of both training information and updates on the ultra world. Their four latest episodes 118-121 have been especially great.

                  1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                  Running Problem


                  Problem Child

                    100 mile training is a lot like training for a road marathon. You do all your long runs on pritty trails, you eat real food/ snaks, carry water, hang out with lots of friends and don't have to do speed work. Yes you long runs will take you longer but you can walk the uphills. I only have time to run trail 1-2 times and run road the rest of the time. I eat what I want when I trail run. Mt Dew and donuts work great for me. 

                     

                     

                    Today I learned trail running is not what I want to read about on work. Mountain Dew isn't always available AND every time I drink it I think of you and some other woman I know. Mostly you because she doesn't trail run. Also, the prettiest trails are the hardest ones to run. I never spend time looking around. Totally hiked the hill at Diamond Peak with my head down. Pacer tried to comment on taking in the scenery or taking a photo and I told him "no. I've got one gear and this is it. I ain't stopping until the top." I was serious about it too. Didn't even attempt to jog the 100 ft downhill to the aid station.

                     

                    Actually, I never considered speed work for trails. Just hill training because the up hills are where I am the worst. I will always tell myself "To be successful in a 100 miler you have to do 5-6 hour days in the hills."

                     

                    EDIT: Oh and my big toenail is ALMOST ready to fall off. I'm hoping for a "full pull."

                     

                    JMac I don't know what creates a culture. Perhaps the lack of a culture existing makes it continue to not exist. Perhaps it's because the local authorities aren't willing to shut down many roads to give us an excellent course, or perhaps it is just race organizers looking to cash in by owning the same four or five races everyone runs so they say "well if you want a certified course just go to Sacramento." I've no idea what it takes to be certified beyond someone on a bike riding the course 2 or 3 times to calculate the shortest distance possible.

                     

                    EDIT #2: I heard a podcast say "It's better to go into a race 10% undertrained than 1% over trained." It's a piece of advice I try to keep in mind when I think about doing 90+ mile weeks when I'm regularly doing 50-70 during marathon training.

                     

                    EDIT #3

                    Fishy: I've used this group in lieu of a coach. It's possibly taken longer to learn things. Some of the things I had to learn was asking "what is the purpose of this workout?" It's really helped me, even recently, dial in my training. When I was doing 1,200m repeats at sub 6:00/mi pace (MUCH faster than my 5k PR) I died. The purpose of THAT workout was "to go out there, run hard, and suffer" which I accomplished in spectatular fashion. After being real with myself and brining paces closer to a "goal 5k pace" I've been more successful in completing the actual workout and benefiting from the intended purpose. i've also learned, through years of training and advice here, not to over stress the body. Weights and workouts on the same day, tapers are part of training, race like you train, and speed work is only a PART/PERCENTAGE of the weekly mileage. For me, 50 mile weekly goals give me the easy miles to justify doing 3 miles of speed work. I've picked through the Jack Daniels and Hansons books enough to realize "they're the same, but different" for me.

                     

                    TL;DR This group is my coach (I'm cheap and WAS poor), and I think a coach is an excellent tool to have. Make sure you use the tool correctly and not how you THINK it should work.

                    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                    VDOT 54.9

                    5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                    Mikkey


                    Mmmm Bop

                       

                      Yeah I've heard this too. It's just for a bit to get themselves warmed up. I think people like the idea of thinking they can get really fast by running really slow.

                       

                      I know, surely that idea is absolutely ludicrous and impossible?

                      5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                      CalBears


                         Yeah I've heard this too. It's just for a bit to get themselves warmed up. I think people like the idea of thinking they can get really fast by running really slow.

                         

                        I agree with Mikkey completely. Based on my experience and from what I saw observing dozens other runners, if you train for a longer distance (marathon?), you have 10 times much better chance to achieve your goal if you run 80-90 miles per week very slowly and do one intense workout per week and probably a long-ish run (16-18-20) at moderate pace, than running 40-50 mpw at faster pace and doing 3 workouts per week - including a long run with some MP or fartlek or progressive. I did both and every time you do shorter but faster weeks, you get to the point where you cannot really objectively see that you are going very close to injury state. And with faster running and more intense workouts, every tweak you have will have a very big chance to become a real injury that will take you weeks to recover and you lost the training cycle.'

                         

                        The more years I run, the more I think that for marathon running (yes, I can only talk about FM, not an expert in HM and shorter distances), the main issue to overcome is the grueling fight during the second half of the distance. And that is achievable through fight with yourself during your training - when it's not about pacing actually (you are obviously tired when you run 80-90 miles week after week), but about fighting against the strong desire to stop/slow down/put lesser effort during that long run when your mind telling you you cannot do it anymore with that effort and asks you to take it easy...

                         

                        And yes, just my opinion, YMMV, of course...

                        paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                        JMac11


                        RIP Milkman

                          I don't think folks would disagree with what you're saying Cal. My point was more narrow that people believe the Kenyans are out running 9:00+ on every single easy run, which is just not true. The myth of the "Kenyan Shuffle" spread like that.

                           

                          I think there is the phase that runners go through. They start out doing all their easy runs way too fast. Then, there is a period where they learn about slowing down (like the Kenyan Shuffle), and they become obsessed with the other direction: just how slowly they're doing easy runs.

                           

                          Eventually, people find what works for them in a wide range. Some might skip those learning periods! For the 3:00 runner, that might be easy runs in the range of 7:45 up to 9:30 or so, which is a big range. But I've heard some people who are trying to break 3:00 brag about how they do their easy runs in the 11:00 range and then point to the Kenyans to justify it. That is just not going to be a recipe for reaching your peak.

                           

                          Again, certain factors may influence that (especially as we get older, needing to slow down in that range). But there is an upper (lower?) bound on easy pace that sometimes we fail to talk about because in the ratio of people running too fast to too slow on easy runs, it's probably 10 or 20 to 1.

                          5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                           

                           

                          mmerkle


                            Cal/JMac: Just to be slightly devils advocate here, what if on a run intended to be easy and slow, you naturally pick it up just a bit and it feels good to do so. As in you're not fighting what your body is saying and in fact if anything you would be fighting it to slow down.

                             

                            For example a lot of my easy runs start 8-8:30 pace, but I gradually progress down to 7:45-7:50 sometimes 7:30 on a good day. It's not intentional. Would it be better to force myself to stay at 8-8:30, or to just let the increased speed happen?

                            Upcoming races: NCR marathon (11/26)

                            JMac11


                            RIP Milkman

                              Most people follow the rule that as long as you are hitting every workout perfectly and you aren't getting injured, that's fine. Of course, that's rare. It's taken me years to figure out what exactly the right easy pace is. I had a lot of good days like you're describing where the pace would pick up within that wide easy pace range (e.g. some runs I'd go to MP+15%). However, I was finding that I was struggling with hitting workout paces, which means something is wrong: you can't on easy days "feel great" and then the next day be unable to hit workout paces. That means there is something off with your internal calibration. So I now have set a limit of MP+20%: I will not let my easy pace go faster than that, even if I'm feeling really good. I'd say I probably hit that limit 1 out of every 5 easy runs or so.

                              5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                               

                               

                              CalBears


                                Cal/JMac: Just to be slightly devils advocate here, what if on a run intended to be easy and slow, you naturally pick it up just a bit and it feels good to do so. As in you're not fighting what your body is saying and in fact if anything you would be fighting it to slow down.

                                 

                                For example a lot of my easy runs start 8-8:30 pace, but I gradually progress down to 7:45-7:50 sometimes 7:30 on a good day. It's not intentional. Would it be better to force myself to stay at 8-8:30, or to just let the increased speed happen?

                                 

                                I would say, if it feels really easy, then I don't think there should be a problem with any pace that feels easy. But, "easy" is a subjective term. That's why I value Heart Rate data so much - you might think that it is easy and then you look at the watch and it is just 10 bpm lower than your MP heart rate - and that HR I would not call easy. Or, let's say you cannot keep 6:50 pace for the marathon distance and then you run in training at 7:20 pace and call it easy - just for a sake of an example. That also would be strange.

                                 

                                mmerkle - I do not think there are strict rules that you should follow 100%, definitely what works for me as 50+ years old not necessarily would work for you as late 20 / early 30 (?) years old? All I am saying - just be very careful when your fitness gets to the top, you getting really excited and overdo it - I did it quite a few times, even knowing about it. That's all I would like to say. But... Higher mileage works universally, doesn't matter what specifics you apply to your training, and you can't do higher mileage if you run all your runs fast - basically you still have to find what works for you best - and it takes time.

                                paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile