2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 497 times)

mmerkle


    Mikkey haha I love that!

     

    I tape my race bibs on my bedroom door. My medals are just all lying around in random different places. Somehow the bibs to me are the trophies.

    Running Problem


    Problem Child

       

      Logging boring consistent splits in Boston will be an accomplishment. At CIM I felt in the early, hillier miles, the uphills & downhills mostly cancelled each other out and you could run even splits. At Boston the uphills & downhills are both generally longer, so it’s pretty hard to run even splits if you’re trying to keep even effort. Overall negative split is unusual too (and probably counterproductive), since the hardest section is 16-21.

       

      Challenge accepted.

       

      Cool shadow box. I think a friend's wife, also a non-runner, did it with his. I'm wondering if my wife will do mine, or if I'll just hang it on the wall with the other stuff I have. My 50 miler gave me a piece of a log cut perfectly to be a drink coaster. Other races....I don't know why I keep taking medals. Part of me wishes I could have my bib from the 2022 Boston even though I didn't run it. I paid for it so I should at least get the swag, right?

      Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

      VDOT 53.37 

      5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

      JMac11


      RIP Milkman

        I can't imagine running a negative split at Boston. I really underestimated how much the Netwon hills would take out of me, even though I started conservatively and let a bunch of people blow by me.

         

        I hang up my marathon medals, but that's it. I do use one of my short race medals as a coaster as it was designed to do so, so that's pretty cool.

         

         

        Question for the group (training theory talk) - who has experience with short tapers into marathons? I cannot see how I'm going to do a 3 week taper as that is...this Monday. I need to get a couple of workouts in to strengthen my legs and be ready for race day. More importantly, having taken almost a full week off after a down week, I don't think my legs will do well if I take the traditional 3 week taper. That's effectively a 5 week taper, which will almost certainly leave me completely flat heading into race day. I'm thinking of doing something like 92%ish percent of peak, then 73%, which I would call more like a 2 week taper. I know a lot of people have success with them, wanted to see if anyone here does. Seems like most people here follow the standard 80/60 approach to tapering with 3/2 weeks to go.

         

        Looking at my 2 quality days a week, it looks something like this (with week 4 being this week). You'll see I slowly lower the total mileage of each quality day, and if there is quality, lower that as well. Week 3 looks fairly normal, but week 2 is when the real taper starts. I'd say from 10 days out until the race, my schedule looks identical to how it would if I wasn't injured, i.e. this is an exponential taper that then looks like every other taper with 10 days to go

         

        Week 4

        Q1: Nonexistent, legs absolutely not ready for any sort of tough work. Ran a double of 5 in the AM, 11 in the PM instead

        Q2: 22-23 mile long run

         

        Week 3

        Q1: 19 with 4x2T

        Q2: 17 with 13 at MP (within a half marathon for aid stations

         

        Week 2

        Q1: 15 with 3x2T

        Q2: 14, all easy

         

        Week 1

        Q1: 9, with 3x1T with extra rest

        Q2: Race!

        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

         

         

        Running Problem


        Problem Child

          Hanson's has a 10 day taper. Last workout is Thursday the week before a Sunday race and I've been successful with it.

           

          EDIT: Cut out the 3x1T and you've essentially nailed a 10 day taper. I know you like threshold work, but this isn't a PR race, this isn't a course record race, and you're trying to avoid injury. Does doing MORE threshold work the week of a marathon make sense? Does it?

           

          EDIT 2:

           

           Either way, Moose Mug was barely in the question and that is out. PR is definitely out as well. We'll see what happens but even my "real" goal of 2:39:59 on that course may be out too and I'll just have to try to get out there and run a course PR (2:46). Injuries suck. 

          If the moose mug, and PR are out is the course PR really worth it vs injury? Could you pull a 2:46 in a year if you're in 100% shape? I mean, Grandma's already sucked so another "try to" marathon sounds like it would REALLY suck....and I'm the "checkers or wreckers" guy.

          If you hit 4x2T then go for it. You don't need another 3x1T to hit the 2:46 because 4x2T is your jam (confidence boost/race test) going into a race.

          Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

          VDOT 53.37 

          5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

            I can't imagine running a negative split at Boston. I really underestimated how much the Netwon hills would take out of me, even though I started conservatively and let a bunch of people blow by me.

             

             

            In 2019 when I ran - of the 26,658 finishers, 705 ran a negative split. I have no idea what the numbers are in other years or at other marathons, but that seems ridiculously low. That was a rough year for it because it got pretty warm - about 70F, humid, and sunny by the end. I backed off my original goal from the start, but it didn't save me. I was starting to fade a bit already going into the Newton hills; I figured they'd slow me down a little but I'd power through them and come out the other side ready for the final downhill. But instead I came out the other side a completely broken man. The last 4-5 miles of that race were just about the hardest time I've ever had (aside from my first marathon). Total death march - at every moment I desperately wanted to stop and walk. The fact that it was Boston forced me to press on. It ended up not being nearly as slow as I thought - it felt like a 10:00 shuffle, but I looked at the splits later and they were 8:00-8:15. I was in PR shape going in, so I guess my legs still knew what to do, even if my brain wanted to give up. I finished with a 4 minute positive split, which was not too bad for that day and better than a lot of other people I talked to. My greeting to everyone I saw wearing the shirt/jacket/medal the next day was "Rough day out there yesterday, huh?" - met with unanimous agreement.

            Dave

            CommanderKeen


            Cobra Commander Keen

              JMac - Ahead of CIM last year my final three weeks were (compared to peak) ~94%, ~70%, and ~50% (not counting the race as part of the week). I don't recall having any problems with it. 
              I have no objection with your proposed plan for the rest of the cycle.


              RP - That final 3x 1T (usually with double rest) is more about just keeping the legs moving and sharp than anything else. It's a super-easy one, especially at the end of a cycle and with some taper already.

              5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

               

              Upcoming Races:

               

               

              Ian5


                Dave-When I was prepping for Boston I read that 80% of runners positive split by at least 5 mins,sounds right as the 2nd half is a lot harder than the first.

                May even have been here I read it.

                5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39


                Pain is my friend

                  A lot of great marathon times lately. Great job everyone. It makes me want to keep up the training and try for a faster time. But I wont.

                   

                  Dave- I know many people that run boston 30 min slower than their qualifying time. They did all the hard work to get there, why race it?

                   

                  Running Problem- I love CIM. I went back and looked at my time in 2013. I ran close to an even split 1:26. Finished in 2:52. If I ever want a marathon PR (Give me a few years) I will go back to CIM.

                   

                  Over the last few years, most of my 100 mile training has been as followed. It will change a bit if I am on trail or flat surface.

                   

                  Mon- 8-12 Miles Progressive

                  Tue- Easy 8-10 miles

                  Wed- 10-15 (Some times 5-10 miles tempo)

                  Thur-8-10 miles

                  Fri- 8-10 miles

                  Sat- 15-30 miles (Some work. Not hard. Easy tempo for 5-10 miles) Most my long runs are faster than race pace.

                  Sun- rest

                   

                  For a trail 100 I will try to get 10k vert the 4 weeks before tapering. I train on more runable hills than so steep you have to power hike.  I only do a 10 day taper. Most my peak weeks will be 75-85 miles a week. I only have time for 1-2 days of trail a week. The rest will be on road. I don't do many back to back long runs. I don't think they are needed.

                   

                  Consisent running is key. I only worry about pace when I am training for a 24 loop race or flat 100. The goal with a 24 hour race it to make my easy pace faster and not walk. My goal for my next 24 hour race is to run at a 9 min pace the whole race. I am running Across the years. I have run for 15 hours at 8:50 pace. What's 9 more hours? lol

                  ATY 24   141.445 2019 1st

                  Bear 100 22:08 2021 

                  Jackpot 100 Feb 14:59 - 5th

                  St George marathon Oct 2:58

                  ATY 24 130.969 2022 2nd

                   

                  Pulse endurance 12 hour 76.22 1ST CR

                  July Backyard ultra 22 yards Win

                  Sept Bear 100 24:08

                   

                     

                    Dave- I know many people that run boston 30 min slower than their qualifying time. They did all the hard work to get there, why race it?

                     


                    If you are the type of person who qualifies for Boston, you are probably the type of person who cannot go into a marathon without racing it. Of course some are injured and just want to get through it. But some just run it easy as their “victory lap,” considering their qualifier as their real race. I can see the appeal—when you’re racing hard, and/or especially when suffering, you’re going to miss out on the phenomenal Boston environment. Plus it’s not really a PR course anyway.

                    Dave

                    Fishyone



                      If you are the type of person who qualifies for Boston, you are probably the type of person who cannot go into a marathon without racing it. Of course some are injured and just want to get through it. But some just run it easy as their “victory lap,” considering their qualifier as their real race. I can see the appeal—when you’re racing hard, and/or especially when suffering, you’re going to miss out on the phenomenal Boston environment. Plus it’s not really a PR course anyway.

                       

                       Dave- I think you're right on the money here.  I've gone into Boston undertrained planning to take it easy and still tried to "race" it.  The second half was not fun...I think it was the year that someone mentioned where the temps rose into the mid-upper 70s with direct sun. I remember realizing how screwed I was in Natick/Wellesely  it's a long way in from there.

                      5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                        I’m looking at the Napa Valley Marathon next spring. Has anyone here run that?

                        Dave

                        CommanderKeen


                        Cobra Commander Keen

                          I’m looking at the Napa Valley Marathon next spring. Has anyone here run that?

                           

                          I think Cal has run this one. I've looked at it myself, actually. This year it's the day before my wedding anniversary. On one hand that in and of itself would usually be a hard "no", but the fact that DW could hang out in wine country while I run a silly race could put it back in play.

                          5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

                           

                          Upcoming Races:

                           

                           

                          JMac11


                          RIP Milkman

                            Keen - thanks for the feedback on the short taper.

                             

                            Darkwave - if you're around, let me know what you think on the shorter taper. I saw your name pop up on an LRC thread about this.

                             

                             

                            I went to the PT for the first time today and I'm very happy with her. Immediately she tried to diagnose what was going on holistically rather than just going right to hamstring strengthening exercises. She heard my whole history and thought it was my back causing the issues. She made me do a stretch at one point that is for your pack, but it ended up in my adductors hurting, which was quite a wake up call. I've also had a PT in the past point out how my hips are totally out of alignment. They seem to be okay, then get bad after a lot of training. This is exaclty why I need a PT I can go to once every few months even, just as a check-up of sorts, to make sure things are okay.

                             

                            Mark - forgot to respond - yes i've used an Osteo before and I'm generally happy with them. The best combo I've done is osteo for 30 minutes, PT for 30 minutes. It's expensive here in the USA, but you get the best of both worlds back to back. The osteo did things like dry needling, etc. while the PT worked on exercises.

                            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                             

                             

                            Mikkey


                            Mmmm Bop

                              Milkman - I’m pretty certain I was the last Moose Mug winner over 3 years ago and the only hope of another one on this thread is if you identify as non binary and aim for sub 2:55 at NYC?  I’m sure Ray Bentley will be absolutely fine with that. 👍

                              5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                              CalBears


                                I was watching something else on youtube, but noticed this TED talk presentation and when I listened to it, I saw the guy was referring to training of best athletes in the World and that all of them follow general pattern which most of us here know, but for many beginners (and sometimes even for advanced and intermediates)  the concept is counter-intuitive.

                                 

                                The attached picture shows 17 years of training for Marit Bjorgen, the most successful woman winter skier in the World and her Ranking correlation at each of those years. And it correlates with training of other pros in other sports. We all know that, nothing new about it, but I thought it is pretty cool picture to miss Smile

                                 

                                Just for clarification:

                                HIT - high intensity training

                                MIT - medium intensity

                                LIT - low intensity

                                 

                                Marit Bjorgen 17 years of training at different intensities

                                paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile