2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 497 times)

 

That run lead you over the red line physically, it was the straw that broke the camels' back.

Also, what I marked in bold is IMHO a big red flag. Your workouts should be custom built for you, the odds they'd match someone else's workouts are very rare. I was coached by Luke Humphrey, writer of the Hansons Marathon and half marathon method books, his schedule for me was different from the books, similar over all principles, but adjusted to my (even lower) abilities.

This sums up my thoughts fairly well. T

When you told us he was giving you the same runs as him, I was very worried. I could become a "coach" by just giving everyone a bunch of the same Jack Daniels workouts I do, but that would be terrible. More importantly, the part where you say "he's run a bunch of marathons" is exactly why you shouldn't be doing the same runs as him. You've run 0 marathons! I went back in your log and saw you had a 24 mile (!) long run, but not only that, with 12 miles at MP! This was on top of a couple of other 22 and 23 mile runs with MP as well! That is just an insane, insane run that no coach in his right mind should give to a first time marathoner unless they were extremely talented and already running something like 100 MPW. You can attempt those huge long runs after you've run a bunch of marathons because you know what works for you. For a first time marathoner, I would never prescribe a very long run with quality. It's trying to jam way too much into one single run. And frankly, I wouldn't even go past 21 miles or so.

I understand the feeling of not wanting to rock the boat too much from just 1 bad marathon, but it's not that your race went poorly: it's that he isn't really coaching you. He's coming up with a plan that works for him, and then dumping it on his clients.

If I were to coach you for your next marathon, I would not tell you to run what I run. Just take a look at this board of the people who have run Moose Mugs. Cal, darkwave, and Mikkey have all done it differently because they figured out what works for them. Can you imagine Cal spending 3 hours a week pool running? I can't. But I also can't imagine darkwave taking effectively weeks off from running and then coming back and trying to smash 100 MPWs. They each know what works for them.

This is the classic case of leaving your best race in training. That run you posted, if you had just decided to actually run the marathon that day instead, with even just a very short 1 week taper, you would have run a sub 3:20 easily.

JMac - I actually saw a vehicle yesterday with the license plate "JMAC". You didn't happen to take your Honda CR-V with a University of Oklahoma license plate for a quick out-of-state trip, did you?
I haven't hit 4k in a year yet, but since I'm currently trending to be well above that I hope to do it given taper/recovery from CIM.
Peaking is mostly going to be around the intensity and focus of workouts, rather than a bump in mileage.

Steve - Too much water with not enough electrolytes can certainly lead to hyponatremia of various levels of severity, which could have lead to cramps.

I thought a discussion of not enough electrolytes would really get you going! Apparently only nuclear energy does that 

For your mileage, I'm curious how your coach will get you down in mileage. My training is always up/down as I mentioned, so I pretty much am running peak mileage until 3 weeks out. But I've seen a lot of coaches that have you hit your peak mileage much earlier if one runs as consistently as you do: often about 6 weeks out, sometimes 5. Do you know if your coach will reduce you, to let's say, 90ish miles per week earlier on?

Thanks all for the thoughts.  Flavio if I were to change coaches I'd probably choose someone local, although Mark's coach has obviously gotten pretty good results.  A mate of mine from high school set up "Extra Mile Runners" which I could look at, although the social media stuff I've seen does seem to be aimed more at getting people off the couch.

On the session last night my coach asked me for my thoughts and feedback.  I said I probably peaked too early/ramped things up a bit early.  I did the Wellington half at MP (plus 8km of warm up and down) 15 weeks out from the race, then a pretty big progression the following week (28km) then a 30km with 6 x 1km @ HMP the following week during which I cramped up when I tried to speed up (I had forgotten about this).  I'm only focusing on the long runs because I think my mileage is fine, and probably for the second go doesn't need to increase much if at all (obviously if I then want to improve I'll have to increase).

In July/August I had a cold but for 2 weekends in a row still did my long runs, with no workout (32km, 34km), so another potential mistake there.  Then the next week I jumped straight into a 36km with MP blocks of 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.  This was the run in Hagley Park when a massive tree fell across the path and road and on the 2km block I had to quickly divert into the park on the grass to avoid it and got cramp when I did this - had also forgotten about that.  I was able to recover and finish the MP work though.

Also looking at my easy pace for all runs, but especially the long ones, it is significantly faster than 1 minute per mile slower than "marathon pace".  Maybe I thought this was okay because my goal was "soft".  It especially crept up during a workout in a long run i.e. the easy paced recovery between MP blocks was ALWAYS way too fast.  I mentioned that to the coach too, and he took on board that he should have pushed back harder (I did get several messages from him throughout the cycle telling me I'd blow it if I didn't slow down - I did respond to these, and JMac, but looking at the data, not enough).

The sessions we did weren't an exact match, but I did ask if it was wise for me to do similar long runs, albeit at slower pace, to someone who had done 10+ marathons.  He took it on board but did specifically consider whether I could handle each one (and did point out I wasn't the "typical" first timer, with my years of shorter distances and 1.5 previous marathon cycles).  I should also note that the rest of our weeks were not as similar as our long runs.  He said the plan for the Christchurch Marathon will be a shorter time of ramping up the long runs - I did 7 20+ milers in this cycle which I thought showed I was ready.  I think Dave said he had only ever done 3, and if you look at our results you'd definitely think his way is the better way.  So nothing above 2 hours until late December/January will be the plan.

I haven't made a decision on a change yet - I might try and get a coach to review my training.  I'm not sure whether they'd do that for a potential client or I'd need to pay for a session but I can work that out.  Looking at it now though, it's easy to see where some of the issues and mistakes are.

So the tl;dr version is, I'm just as much to blame as the coach (if it was the training that blew it) by insisting on completing long runs when sick and not running a true "easy" pace.  I might end up better off for the experience than if it had gone to plan, and so might my coach which is why I'm not certain on a change being the best move.

Mikkey will be pleased to hear that he said sub 3:10 is where I have the potential to be in a few marathons.

Who would have thought that after years of everyone telling me my easy pace was too fast, I'd only truly accept it after a race that turned into my worst nightmare.  Stupid stubborn brain.

This may be a dumb idea, but I wonder if it makes sense for a first-time marathoner, even one with a strong history in shorter distances, to start off with a canned plan like Hansons or Pfitz. They might not get you to 100% of your potential, but not too far from it, and will usually get you to the finish safe and healthy. It'll start to give you an idea of what kind of training works for you and what doesn't. Then you can build from there in successive races, either on your own or with a coach.

Dave: That might not be the worst idea at all. I pretty much followed Sage Canaday's plan to a T last cycle. This cycle I am still following it but playing around with it a bit.

Steve: By no means am I as experienced as just about everyone else on here but 7 twenty milers is an absolute ton for a first timer, and in my opinion a lot in general. I have run two marathons; the first I never went over 18 (but I trained stupidly for that one), the second I only did 2, but I did plenty of 15-18 milers. As to slowing down, this is something I only recently learned to embrace but boy does it pay dividends. It 1. Gives me more of a feeling of control over my different paces so I can more willingly "switch gears" during runs, and 2. Allows me to pack more mileage in without making my legs feel like dogshit when it's time for a tempo run. Great job on toughing out that brutal brutal plan though. But it does seem like you were a bit of what I call a "training star". Definitely something I've done before, we live and we learn.

We should change the name of this place to the "Monday Morning Quarterback Thread," lol. (Or whatever expression is comparable for non-Americans. Is there one?)

Yeah I think with the base I have now, a 12 week build up with 3-4 20+ milers is the way to go.  So that means not starting until January 23.  How would you position yourself at the start of that?  There's not too many races in December and January, and not a great time to race anyway except Park Runs.  That gives me 3 months until I even start which is fine with me - I'm doing a full 4 week recovery before I do any workouts.

I also remembered I had 2 down weeks before that big run above after my failed Rarotonga trip and then feeling completely exhausted for a few runs.  So I'd had a mini-taper but was also showing signs of pushing too far by then.

Plenty to work with!  Thanks all.