2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 491 times)


Mmmm.... toasty

    mmerkle: great race report! Thanks for writing. Way to hang in there during what sounds like a challenging marathon. I don't know if I would have finished with all that going on. And, you still cranked out a pretty sweet time. WTG!

     

    me: 64.2 mi @ avg 9:39 min/mi, with a 16.1 mi LR (9:48 min/mi), a 5k race in 23:44 (7:39 min/mi) and two leg press/squat sessions of 25*120 lbs (Mon) and 25*130 lbs (Wed). "Leg press/squat" because it's on a machine that can be adjusted to be more like one or the other. I'd been doing those regularly earlier in the year but had fallen off.

     

    I see flavio started up weights, too, so it must be contagious.

     

    The race was the highlight: wayyy better than last week's, and my fastest time of the year. My old fastest 2022 time had been on that course, and 16 sec slower, so I know it's a real improvement. Was good for the 50-59 F AG win.

     

    Happy running, everybody.

    Chinese-learning sentence of the day:

    我的手机里有一千五百张猫的照片: There are 1500 cat photos on my cell phone

    SteveChCh


    Hot Weather Complainer

      Flavio - Would you say I'm going to feel it so much that it will impact running?  I guess it's a trade off, and thankfully I have 4.5 months until the next race.

       

      mmerkle - Tough day out.  It sounds like something was just a little bit off to cause you not to be able to comfortably hold your goal pace at any point.  Maybe it was the false flat in the first half that then took it out of you for the rest of the race.  Given the speed you can run at, it sounds like a bad day with an as yet unknown cause.  I had a similar experience in the Waterfront half of 2019 - my training had been great then on race day I was a few seconds per km off the pace from the start but it felt like I was struggling to hold on all the way rather than conserving energy, and had a slight fade towards the end like you did.

       

      All in all, sounds like you dug in and got a really solid result on a hard day which is something to be proud of, but it's fair to be disappointed.  As is standard I will say to take your time, don't make plans for any races for a couple of weeks and recover well.

       

      Edit: After the comment from our lurker from Baltimore (post more!) I had a look on Strava and that does not look like an easy course profile.  No huge climbs but probably more than a false flat for the whole first half is tough and is probably a big factor in what happened.  Also, a pretty sharp climb in the 41st kilometre, what sort of evil does it take to create that course...

       

      Mark - Very nice win in the hood on a pretty slow course.

       

      me - Very light week after pulling up really sore from Queenstown.  I'm still on track to hit 4000km for the year but I've been limping towards the goal since Melbourne, to be expected after doing most of the work early in the year.

       

      Weekly for period: From: 21/11/2022 To 27/11/2022

      Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
      in m
      21/11 Recovery 5.55 8.93 00:55:51 10:04 06:15 11
      23/11 Recovery 5.54 8.91 00:53:40 09:41 06:01 11
      24/11 Recovery 4.13 6.65 00:39:59 09:41 06:01 7
      25/11 Warm up 0.34 0.55 00:03:28 10:12 06:18 0
      25/11 Easy pace 5.06 8.14 00:42:39 08:26 05:14 9
      26/11 Warm up 0.34 0.54 00:03:28 10:12 06:25 0
      26/11 All these easy paced kms that I’ve done 8.77 14.11 01:13:44 08:24 05:14 19
      27/11 Recovery 4.13 6.65 00:39:09 09:29 05:53 7

      Total distance: 54.49km (33.86mi)

      5km: 18:53 12/22 │ 10km: 40:49 2/22 │ HM: 1:27:32* 5/22 │ M: 3:35:02 10/22

      *Net Downhill.  Flat course PR:  1:29:25 6/16

      Upcoming Races:

      Motorway Half Marathon February 26, 2023, City to Surf 12km March 19, 2023, Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023

      darkwave


      Mother of Cats

        MMerkle - you toughed it out and learned a bit more about the marathon - I think you accomplished a lot yesterday.  FWIW, I think Half Crazy makes a good point about the false flat/incline going out - those can be surprisingly draining.

         

        I know you suspect that you may not be cut out for the marathon.  Personally, I think you just need to learn the marathon a bit more.  My hunch is that if you had backed off the pace a bit more in the first miles (when you were going slightly uphill, you would have felt slightly better in the final miles (everyone feels kinda shitty at mile 22 - it's just whether you can hold your rhythm or not).  But that's all part of learning the marathon - learning how to hit that right balance of forward and restraint.

         

        Re: the foot - If I understand you correctly, I believe that part of your foot is the tuberosity of the fifth metatarsal.  That's where one of your peroneal tendons attaches.   The peroneal muscles also run up the outside of your calf.

         

        All of the above is a long way of getting to this thought: if your earlier lower leg pain was also on the right (as I recall, it was right above the lateral malleolus), then the two instances of pain might both be related to the same muscle (peroneal) and just manifesting in different places.

        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

         

        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

        darkwave


        Mother of Cats

          Flavio - boring is good!   We really don't geek out about strength training enough here (which I guess makes sense, since this is a running board).

           

          MarkyMark - I don't know that person (the one who veered on the video), but I know that running team (Dojo of Pain) and they're all good people.  I watched the video, and I'm honestly not so sure it was intentional - might just be a "legs giving out" thing.

           

          CH - nice week with a great race.  It was great to see you twice today!

           

          Steve - I agree with Flavio - yoga can be deceptively hard, and can detract from a run the next day.  To some extent, it depends on the type of yoga.  Some yoga is very relaxed, while other (especially power yoga) can be very intense.  Most yoga studios will let you know what classes are more or less intense.  And also remember that it's always OK to modify a pose, to end it early, or to skip a pose and just do childs pose.  

          When yoga studios were open, I would often go to a class a day or two after a marathon, and do the poses that felt good and do childs pose the rest of the time.

          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

           

          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

          darkwave


          Mother of Cats

            61 miles running, 80 minutes pool-running, and 500 yards swimming.

            M: 7 miles very easy (9:42) and upper body weights/core
            T: 8 miles with a relaxed 1600 in 7:14 and 2x200 each in 50 seconds. Followed with injury prevention work.
            W:5 miles very easy (10:06) plus drills and two strides.
            Th: 10 miles, including a 5 mile race in 38:06 (8:11/7:30/7:417:31/6:52).
            F: Weights/core and 80 minutes pool-running.
            Sa: 10.5 miles easy (9:50) plus drills and four strides, followed by streaming yoga.
            Su: 20 miles progressive, split as the first 7.5 miles averaging 9:44; the next 6.5 miles averaging 8:28, and the next 6 miles averaging 7:55 (.5 mile cooldown after). Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.

             

            I ran a 5 mile Turkey Trot on Thursday (race report). If you're wondering about the splits, I started way too far back and was blocked for much of the race.  Since I'm running paces that are very different from what I'm used to running, I just have no idea where to seed myself anymore.

             

            After Thanksgiving, I swapped neuro meds - I'm now trying something called Sinemet (I'm actually on the generic, which has the much longer name of carbidopa/levodopa). It has to be ramped up pretty slowly, so I won't be sure that it's a path to running normally for another few weeks. I feel better on it than off of it, but not as good as I would like. But I guess we'll give it time.

             

            One of the annoying things about Sinemet is that it has to be taken every 5 hours starting when you wake up, preferably on an empty stomach. This morning I had to carry a dose with me and stop in the middle of my run to take it. If it turns out that this works for me, I'll have to figure out how to schedule it around a marathon (maybe wake up 5 hours before the marathon, and then take the second dose right before the race starts?)

            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

             

            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

            DavePNW


              mmerkle—sounds like you had a rough day at the office. Some comments:

              - I don’t know enough about your training, history, or shorter race times to know whether you “should be” capable of sub-3. As darkwave (and you) said, you may just need more marathoning experience. How many have you run? The hardest thing even for experienced marathoners is setting the right goal time; you want to be aggressive, but going out just a tiny bit too fast can risk a big blowup. The translation of shorter race times to a marathon time is a very individual thing. 

              - Not sure what to say about the foot; I do like the idea that you can make the pain go away with anger, lol. But the quad issue seems likely from just trying to outrun your fitness, possibly exacerbated by a somewhat hilly course.

               

              - The nausea you felt after the finish definitely sounds like dehydration and/or under-fueling. I like to try to take water at every station—you might not be able to drink much each time, so give yourself more shots at it. Take 2 cups at each, and swallow as much as you can. Maybe take some sports drink every 2-3 stops. And 3 gels sounds very light to me, I’d think 4 is a minimum. You say you don’t like either; for half or under you don’t have to worry about it at all, but for a marathon you need to find a system that works for you. 

              Regardless, every time you finish one of these things it’s an accomplishment and a learning experience. And maybe 3:03 seems pedestrian around here, but of course it’s pretty damn impressive by any other standard and a whole hell of a lot faster than I’ll ever run. So hearty congratulations are still in order.

              Dave

              Running Problem


              Problem Child

                mmerkle it took me a lot of marsthons to get CLOSE to a BQ. I missed it by less than 26 seconds after aiming for a BQ-2 and suffering what I think was heat stroke. Stomach issues were my problem, after years of IT band issues.  I never actually believed I was ACTUALLY capable of a sub-3 marathon even though my training runs said I was. A 3:03 with foot pains is significant for me and here is why. 
                I was aiming for a 3:03 (7:00/mi) pace for my BQ-2 on a ‘major downhill’ REVEL course. I had it ‘in the bag’ for about 23 miles. It was absolutely the defining moment in my running career where I literally ‘broke through’ the desire to quit and absolutely committed to pushing beyond. Missing my BQ time required me to do another marathon which didn’t allow ME time to sit back (I wasn’t injured) so I kept running.  When Boston announced times…I wouldn’t have made it in with my BQ-2 (BAA had JUST made times 5 minutes faster) and the day I saw the times I said ‘fuck it.  Going sub 3. BQ-5 is the only guarantee.  I went all in, and dialed in paces and nutrition from the advice here. Even with all the ‘CIM magic in the world I crossed 40k with stomach issues maybe 1 minute ahead of schedule still doubting I had it in me.  My Strava for that race was absolutely gorgeous. Plus or minus something like 2 seconds for every single mile.  I took JMac’s advice on pacing and Darkwave’s advice on feel to the max that day. 

                I’d never broken 90 minutes in the half, 40 minutes in the 10k, or 20 minutes in the 5k leading up to my sub-3 attempt. Go get healed up proper and pick another marathon to race in 8-10 months. As commanderkeen reminded me, the fitness comes back faster than you’d think.

                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                VDOT 52.45

                5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                Running Problem


                Problem Child

                  My week was kind of cool. Me and my Saturday running partner have decided to tackle running every street in Reno. I crossed 2,500 miles in my run streak on Saturday, and I’m down to needing less than 7 miles a day to finish it with an average of 7.00 miles per day. The initial dream was to run CIM 2023, but I put more thought into racing Boston hard rather than another race at CIM.  Earlier this year I couldn’t find the desire to train hard. Too many mental games at work and life.  I backed away from speed work and lots of posting here. Kind of sunk into a hole of my own to do my own thing. I brought Marathon RP out after the 10k so now it’s a matter of focusing on on training for Boston. I think I should start doing some updated speed workouts (weather permitting) and HOPE to post here more frequently in 2023. Looking forward to the NYC qualifier attempt I have. 

                  is there any bonus to beating my NYC time like there is for Boston? I’m kind of new to this.

                  Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                  VDOT 52.45

                  5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                  Running Problem


                  Problem Child

                    Also,

                     

                    the Nike ZoomX Vaporfly Next% is (as low as) $166 with a 25% off on Monday. It’s their tiger shark pattern, or black. Others are $175.  Free shipping if you’re a ‘Member’ which means you have them your email one time.

                    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                    VDOT 52.45

                    5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                    DavePNW


                      Also,

                       

                      the Nike ZoomX Vaporfly Next% is (as low as) $166 with a 25% off on Monday. It’s their tiger shark pattern, or black. Others are $175.  Free shipping if you’re a ‘Member’ which means you have them your email one time.

                       

                      Except they are pretty much sold out if your size is anything between 6 and 15.

                      Dave

                      Running Problem


                      Problem Child

                         

                        Except they are pretty much sold out if your size is anything between 6 and 15.

                         

                        Well..CIM is in a few days soooooooo…

                        Maybe keen can report back on how many leopard print Nikes he sees.

                        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                        VDOT 52.45

                        5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                        JMac11


                        RIP Milkman

                          Merkle - thanks for the race report. I think we need more detail though about the beginning of the race, as that's what I find the most odd of this entire race. Your training (which I've followed closely) all indicated not only sub 3, but relatively easy sub 2:55. The fact that you didn't even go out at sub 3 pace is very strange to me. I'm not saying you did that intentionally, but rather that MP felt more like a faster pace to you. You ran that ridiculous long run 4 or 5 weeks ago where you averaged just under 7:00 pace for 20 miles, but then you barely held that for the race.

                           

                          That means 1 of 2 things:

                           

                          1) You actually were injured, sick, or the change in training due to your PTT led to an off race

                          2) Your training needs adjustment, i.e. you left your race in training

                           

                          I think for almost everyone, the answer is usually 2. However, you tend to see that more where people go out at a fast pace and then blow up on the back end. That didn't happen to you. So I have a feeling it may be number 1.

                           

                          I do think you're made to run marathons. You can't run a long run sub 7:00 for 20 miles and then worry you aren't cut out for the distance. I just think you had some underlying issue. That isn't to say there aren't tweaks to be made (I've pointed out multiple times I think your long runs need tweaking and you probably need to race more frequently), but you should definitely give the marathon another go.

                          5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                           

                           

                          JMac11


                          RIP Milkman

                            Flavio - you convinced me. I'll start reading it within the new year. You are definitely right about needing to trial it out, as I do get nauseous at almost every distance.

                             

                            Darkwave - good for you on trying to seed yourself right. I always have to hold my breath when I see someone line up right at the front who you know is running a 25:00 5K (everyone has THAT guy in their races right?)

                             

                            RP - my wife has approved 2023 CIM. I need to return to that glorious town known as Sacramento. Also no, NYC is not like Boston: you just need to beat it by 1 second.

                            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                             

                             

                            CommanderKeen


                            Cobra Commander Keen

                              RP - With an absence of real speed work you retain speed REALLY well. Congrats on that continuing running streak.
                              I think the only "bonus" for beating the qualifying time for NYC is perhaps a better corral or wave.


                              JMac - Killer deal on the hotel!


                              Steve - Ouch, your depiction of the Stages of Racing Grief hits a little close to home.


                              Mark - Congrats on another W.


                              Merkle - Looking forward to reading through that RR when I have a bit. Congrats on the race and great placing ahead of it, though.


                              Flavio - Hooray for boring weeks!


                              DWave - Nice week, and best of luck getting the new med situation sorted out favorably.

                               

                               

                              The taper is halfway over, and aside from my legs feeling like garbage I'm doing great!

                              I managed a 7 second PR/my first sub 18 5k without going all-out (per coach's recommendation) to get it, which was nice. While my legs are still feeling kinda heavy/junky, my run this morning did feel pretty smooth compared to any run over the last week.

                              I suppose all there is to worry about now is the weather, right? Current forecast in Folsom is for 42*, overcast, with a 5mph wind (all good) and a 40% chance of rain (less good).

                               

                              Weekly for period: From: 11/21/2022 To 11/27/2022

                              Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                              in ft
                              11/21 8x 800m progressive 12.35 19.87 01:33:33 07:34 04:42 230
                              11/22 4 rabbits & 2 hawks 8.00 12.88 01:11:29 08:56 05:33 253
                              11/23 23 geese, 7 deer (just 4 strides), 1 hawk, 1 owl, & 1 heron 8.00 12.88 01:10:22 08:48 05:28 443
                              11/23 Runch 4.00 6.44 00:35:55 08:59 05:35 151
                              11/24 Course scouting 3.13 5.03 00:25:40 08:12 05:06 66
                              11/24 Edmond Turkey Trot 3.12 5.02 00:17:59 05:46 03:35 59
                              11/24 Campus cool-down 3.00 4.83 00:25:04 08:21 05:11 79
                              11/25 4 turkeys 7.00 11.27 01:04:07 09:10 05:41 440
                              11/26 47 turkeys, 8 deer (zero strides), & 3 hawks 16.10 25.91 02:14:10 08:20 05:11 823
                              11/27 19 ducks 5.00 8.05 00:44:29 08:54 05:32 217

                              Total distance: 69.72mi

                              5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

                               

                              Upcoming Races:

                               

                              Heartland 50 - May 6

                              Running Problem


                              Problem Child

                                JMac 2023 should be a good group for you to race with.  Olympic qualifiers going for at the end of the year will be there. Women going for a 2:37 would be a massive boost for you. Family trip?

                                 

                                edit

                                 

                                Keen best of luck this weekend.  I’ll be tracking. If you could text me your feelings during the race I’d appreciate it.

                                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                                VDOT 52.45

                                5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07