2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 497 times)

Running Problem


Problem Child

    Post related to marathon training ahead!!!

     

    so I did a 5x1200m workout yesterday. I did it at Interval pace based on the Jack Daniels training plan VDOT, and a belief I could do it.  This is actually the third time I’ve done 4-5x1200m this year on the same road.   Using my VDOT from

    the Turkey trot (52.5) I picked my goal. 
    I couldn’t do the paces. At all. It was stupid hard to even think about it. I was just sick for 2 days last week, and I don’t think this has enough to do with it. I’m looking for some answers or advice.  

    my 10k pace was about 6:23/mi average. 
    this workout was similar elevation and weather. Actually a little

    cooler but not enough to matter.  I couldn’t hold the 6:03/mi pace it said I should be training at.  Even going down two levels I couldn’t hit it. 
    Times were 4:42, 4:34, 4:48, 4:38, 4:50)

    I wanted to bail after #4. The even ones have more downhill in them. I was doing about 6:15/mi pace.  

     

    what is wrong here? Is this workout too big for me? Is Interval pace THAT far off or impossible? These paces put me down in a 3:10 marathon pace and nothing close to a 2:57. I expected this workout to be hard, not impossible.

    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

    VDOT 53.37 

    5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

    zebano


      Well clearly you did it wrong. As Krash has shown us we don't do intervals, we just go run b2b marathons and all will be well.

       

      Ok more seriously:

       

      1. Don't discount sickness that quickly.

      2. What have you done lately ? Sorry I haven't paid close attention to training in this thread. If you've not done any speedwork or even strides lately, that makes things harder.

      3. JD assumes you're training on flat ground, probably a track. If you have hills that's a big adjustment. Heck, when I was coached last year my coach would ask me if I'm running at a track or not and slow paces down about 5 seconds / mile for flat roads.

      4. Just in case other people don't want to do the match 4:31/1200m was goal pace so yeah you missed by quite a bit.

      5. Finally, I pace is just kind of brutal. It's roughly 3k pace and there is nothing easy about it. I've attributed it to me peaking early in multiple cycles. It's gotten bad enough that I just flat out don't use JD's I pace and instead do similar workouts either by effort or at 5k pace (6:09/mi in this case so you would still miss most of those).

      6. Some people are workout monsters. Some people are race monsters. You are the latter.

       

       

      I'm really strongly leaning toward #1

      1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

      mmerkle


        RP What about the pace was hard? Was it the legs or the lungs? Or did your body just feel dead that day? I do have days where a workout just really goes poorly for me and low 6s feels shitty. Lack of sleep and/or getting over a cold seem to be the most common causes for me. In those cases though the lungs aren't the problem, it's more like my body feels half asleep and sluggish.

        Fishyone


           

          2. What have you done lately ? Sorry I haven't paid close attention to training in this thread. If you've not done any speedwork or even strides lately, that makes things harder.

           

           

           

           

          If you haven't been doing speed workouts lately then my vote is for #2.  My "I" pace has sped up significantly in 3 weeks just by doing 2 speed sessions a week.  I don't think my fitness has improved since Philly but my speed has definitely improved and fast running seems much more under control now than any time during the last few cycles.

          5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

            4-5x1200m is a pretty typical workout for me, but no way I can do it faster than 5k pace.

            Dave

            SteveChCh


            Hot Weather Complainer

              5 x 1200m at 3-5km pace is a huge speed workout.  I wouldn't attempt that without building up over 4-6 weeks and wouldn't even consider doing it the week after being sick.  Maybe I'm soft but I'm not surprised at all that it was a bust.

              5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23

               

              2024 Races:

              Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

              Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024

              Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024

              Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

                Also: sometimes you just have a bad day.

                Dave

                JMac11


                RIP Milkman

                  5 x 1200m at 3-5km pace is a huge speed workout.  I wouldn't attempt that without building up over 4-6 weeks and wouldn't even consider doing it the week after being sick.  Maybe I'm soft but I'm not surprised at all that it was a bust.

                   

                  I consistently fly too close to the sun with Daniels and this was exactly my thoughts.

                   

                  Daniels says I pace workouts should take between 2 and 4 minutes, with 1 to 3 minutes rest (e.g. if you do 2 minute intervals, do 1 minute rest. If you do 4, do 3 minutes rest).

                   

                  might try 1200s as one of my last big workouts at Steve said. I would not start with this.

                   

                  Start with 6x800. Go from there.

                  5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                   

                   

                     

                    Start with 6x800. Go from there.

                     

                    Oh yeah I definitely want to nail this before moving up to 1200s.

                    Dave

                    need2tri


                      RP : just curious, why switching to JD for your next marathon as you have done phenomenal with Hansons' and still are progressing with that plan?

                      Post related to marathon training ahead!!!

                       

                      so I did a 5x1200m workout yesterday. I did it at Interval pace based on the Jack Daniels training plan VDOT, and a belief I could do it.  

                      Running Problem


                      Problem Child

                        Zeb this is the first speed work I’ve done. While I perform well on race day I expect to be able to perform a workout set for my abilities.  Yeah…I was pretty far off 6:09/mi pace.

                        mmerkle the whole thing felt hard.  Sustaining the 6:03/mi pace or even 6:08/mi felt absolutely impossible. More ‘I’m not as strong as I think I am’ in general than legs or lungs.  I guess I’d say the legs felt worse than lungs.

                        Need2tri general curiosity in training plans. I’ve had it sitting next to me for years. Doing the same thing over and over expecting different (okay I have PRd every single time) results is fine. I was just interested in a change of training plans.  Just because Hanson’s ‘works’ and I know it doesn’t mean it is the only thing I should do. I picked Hansons for the lack of a 20 miler.  Now…it’s actually what I’ll be working with since my schedule kind of requires it.

                         

                        apparently I can’t read. It was supposed to be 5x1km.  Still…I couldn’t hit the times.  I did 5x1.2km like a bozo.

                        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                        VDOT 53.37 

                        5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

                        Mikkey


                        Mmmm Bop

                           

                          Krash - reading your weekly is always mind bending, this is really super hero level stuff.

                          Wait what? 100 miles. DAMN!

                          Wait what? Back to back marathons in 2 days? DAMN!

                          Wait what? A marathon was not enough, he went out to run some more on the same day? DAMN!

                           

                          Back in the day there was a poster called MrMattM who ran 4 marathons in 4 days and it was a kind of entertaining thing rather than super hero level. 

                          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                             

                            Back in the day there was a poster called MrMattM who ran 4 marathons in 4 days and it was a kind of entertaining thing rather than super hero level. 

                             

                            Not sure if this is the one he did, but in Seattle there's something called the Quadzilla - running 4 marathons scheduled each day of Thanksgiving weekend. I know others who have done it. Sheer lunacy.

                            Dave

                              Doing the same thing over and over expecting different (okay I have PRd every single time) results is fine. I was just interested in a change of training plans.  Just because Hanson’s ‘works’ and I know it doesn’t mean it is the only thing I should do.

                               

                              I support this philosophy. I think it's worthwhile to shake things up every ~3-4 marathon cycles. Avoid getting stuck in a rut, and maybe there's some kind of muscle confusion factor going on. Seems like whenever I've done it, it's reaped benefits.

                              Dave

                                BTW - I think I've settled on a spring race. I had been looking at the Napa Valley Marathon - nice place to visit, likely decent weather, and a point-to-point course with a gentle downhill. But it's the first weekend in March; I feel like I need a longer break before starting to train again. So I'm targeting the Eugene Marathon on 4/30. I've run it before, but I was semi-injured and out of shape, and basically ran it just to finish. It has the potential to be a fast course, so I'm hoping for some redemption.

                                Dave