2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 497 times)

Running Problem


Problem Child

    So when does training start Dave? You’re all healed up after Chicago and read to go right? Get some speed work in. Try something like 5x1,200m if you’re feeling spicy.

    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

    VDOT 53.37 

    5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

      So when does training start Dave? You’re all healed up after Chicago and read to go right? Get some speed work in. Try something like 5x1,200m if you’re feeling spicy.

       

      I'm just going to keep it easy for a while, official training cycle will start 12 weeks out. I'll probably start adding a bit of speed before then, but no 5x1200 till I absolutely have to.

      Dave

      flavio80


      Intl. correspondent

        Fishy - You've just run a 10k all out, whatever you run on that 5k, won't be even close to 100%, just remember that.

        Last year I ran a 5k time trial in 18:10, then 5 days later I tried running another one, I ran 18:35 or something, I simply didn't have any legs as I had gone to the well 5 days earlier.

         

        RP - Jack D likes to make you suffer, that's why his vo2max workouts are so insane. See how Jmac insists on using his plans and always gets injured during 5k training.
        If you're starting out, I'd start with 12x 1 min on 1 min off, then work your way to 12x400, then 8x600, and ONLY THEN 6x800.
        After some of those, then evolve to 5x1k and then maybe if you still have time 4x1200, but you're likely peaking around the time you get to 5x1k.
        Those paces were just impossible for your current fitness. Perhaps use the JD plan but replace the vo2max (I pace) workouts with the ones from Hansons which are way more realistic ?

         

        Mikkey - Well from my point of view I see that if I wanted to complete a marathon run tomorrow I wouldn't. I mean, maybe I could complete it but it would take me 5h30 and I'd have dead legs for 6 weeks on the best scenario, and I'd be actually sick for 2 or 3 weeks on the worse scenario.
        So yeah, seeing someone complete back to back marathons is to me as beyond reach as it is to run 10 seconds for the 100m.

        PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

        Up next: no idea

        Tool to generate Strava weekly

        Fishyone


           Flavio- Thanks I really hadn't figured that in.  I'm not used to running shorter races and I just assumed because I wasn't "sore" I'd be recovered....See this is why I love this group I'll skip the race and just throw in a JD2Q workout Sunday 

           

          Fishy - You've just run a 10k all out, whatever you run on that 5k, won't be even close to 100%, just remember that.

          Last year I ran a 5k time trial in 18:10, then 5 days later I tried running another one, I ran 18:35 or something, I simply didn't have any legs as I had gone to the well 5 days earlier.

           

          RP - Jack D likes to make you suffer, that's why his vo2max workouts are so insane. See how Jmac insists on using his plans and always gets injured during 5k training.
          If you're starting out, I'd start with 12x 1 min on 1 min off, then work your way to 12x400, then 8x600, and ONLY THEN 6x800.
          After some of those, then evolve to 5x1k and then maybe if you still have time 4x1200, but you're likely peaking around the time you get to 5x1k.
          Those paces were just impossible for your current fitness. Perhaps use the JD plan but replace the vo2max (I pace) workouts with the ones from Hansons which are way more realistic ?

           

          Mikkey - Well from my point of view I see that if I wanted to complete a marathon run tomorrow I wouldn't. I mean, maybe I could complete it but it would take me 5h30 and I'd have dead legs for 6 weeks on the best scenario, and I'd be actually sick for 2 or 3 weeks on the worse scenario.
          So yeah, seeing someone complete back to back marathons is to me as beyond reach as it is to run 10 seconds for the 100m.

          5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

          dktrotter


          Dorothea

            hi... I've been around on RunningAhead long enough to know when it was still that other log (can't remember the name of it now). It's been about 14 years, let's just say that much. I haven't made much use of the community though... just the one year when I joined the running game. Looks like I missed the teams deadline by 2 days to join this year.

             

            I do plan to be a little more communal this time, so please excuse that just pop up and ask questions about myself for now :-)

             

            I'm Dorothea, 31-year-old woman, been running since playing soccer in the pee-wee leagues, but started running officially in high school with cross country and track. I went to a non-NCAA undergrad school, but started a running club in college and ran my first half marathon at 19, first marathon a year later. It's been 11 years and 11 marathons since then, some years running no marathons, some three. I just ran the Jacksonville Marathon on December 11th with a goal of 3:27:30. It ended up being 3:32:59 (my PR is 3:30:39). Seeing the results below, though, I guess I feel a little better about being off the mark. There's always next time!

             

            I don't really have a favorite race distance. They all come with their unique challenges and joys.

             

            I am signed up for a 40-mile race, my first real ultra, on March 25th. I ran a backyard style kind of ultra (running a loop every hour, on the hour for a total of 39.8 miles) in July. It went well, but obviously the consecutive running is what will hurt the most. My question now is: I really want vindication for the marathon. Would it make sense to run a marathon in February, take it hard but keep it as part of the training for the ultra?

             

            Those are my thoughts for now. Thanks for reading!

            Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

            Last race: Community 5K, March 2nd. Speed test run with 2 walk breaks. Went pretty well.  

            dktrotter


            Dorothea

              RP : just curious, why switching to JD for your next marathon as you have done phenomenal with Hansons' and still are progressing with that plan?

               

              I agree with this question!

              Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

              Last race: Community 5K, March 2nd. Speed test run with 2 walk breaks. Went pretty well.  

              Running Problem


              Problem Child

                 

                 

                RP
                Those paces were just impossible for your current fitness. Perhaps use the JD plan but replace the vo2max (I pace) workouts with the ones from Hansons which are way more realistic ?

                This is what I'm having a problem accepting. The paces I was targeting were outside my abilities. I'm using a recent race (18 days old) for training, and I couldn't hit the paces the workout calls for. Why? Was race day something extra special? Is a lingering sickess to blame? How does a 6x800m compare to a 5x1M or 4x1.2k workout? they're the same distance at the same effort so how does it all play together?

                 

                At this point I'd think I could look at a list of workouts for threshold, pick one, and be able to achieve it. Now, to be consistent with my last marathon training cycle (2021 CIM) I'm doubting my ability to get my NYC qualifier (A/Dream goal: 2:53:59) in a few short months. I'm already dreading the cold morning runs so much I'm avoiding them. burr.

                 

                dk I mean.... I just wanted to shake it up a little bit. Break out of the bubble. Try new things. "Give it a go" as my Welsh run partner one day once said (western states pacing). It's like a family trip to the same place with the same stops and the same attractions. There is an entirely different set of stops I've wanted to check out along with a whole side of the map no one knows anything about. What's over there? What's that like? What kind of trouble are we not experiencing by staying in our comfortable bubble?

                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                VDOT 53.37 

                5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

                Running Problem


                Problem Child

                  I am signed up for a 40-mile race, my first real ultra, on March 25th. I ran a backyard style kind of ultra (running a loop every hour, on the hour for a total of 39.8 miles) in July. It went well, but obviously the consecutive running is what will hurt the most. My question now is: I really want vindication for the marathon. Would it make sense to run a marathon in February, take it hard but keep it as part of the training for the ultra?

                   

                  Those are my thoughts for now. Thanks for reading!

                   

                  If you're running the marathon hard, (not PR effort) and the 40 miler is going to have an opportunity to run fast for long periods it could help. Just remember it's about a week of light running the week after the marathon. Also, be mindful during the marathon what the goal is. 40 miler, not revenge. You'd be surprised how much less consecutive running hurts vs running, stopping, running again, and stopping again. I did a 50 miler, and the most time I spent at aid stations was less than 5 minutes. I had periods of walking or hiking due to the terrain and it helped break it up. I made part of my plan to avoid sitting at aid stations, knew what I wanted when I entered aid stations (2 cups of mountain dew or ginger ale, PB&J squares, refill water bottles, go) and kept track of how long I'd been there. It was a NASCAR pit stop for me, and also a moment to think about what's coming up next, how long it should take to get there, and take a moment to stop thinking of the race and think of how I feel in case I needed something else. Typically I rush through things and mistakes are made so on race day I had to slow my brain down and create a plan with a checklist entering aid stations.

                  Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                  VDOT 53.37 

                  5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

                  flavio80


                  Intl. correspondent

                    Fishy - I reckon you can still run it for fun, I was more saying don't expect to be at 100%.
                    One nice thing to do is to start at around 10k pace and then run the last mile all out. It's very fun to pass tons of people, you feel invincible LOL

                     

                    Dorothea - Welcome aboard! Sorry I can't help with these ultra races but I see RP already gave you some feedback.

                     

                    RP - The problem is Jack D's formula. It's too aggressive, it might only work for super fast people like the elites.

                    To me it's senseless to use 3K pace for a 5K race. Why not use 5k pace for a 5k race, that sounds a lot more logical.
                    "How does a 6x800m compare to a 5x1M or 4x1.2k workout? they're the same distance at the same effort so how does it all play together?"
                    The difference is how long you recover. The shorter the interval the longer is the recovery proportionally.
                    Ex: 12x400 w 400 jogs versus 6x800 w 400 jogs. The 12x400 is much easier because you are recovering for longer.
                    The idea with the Hanson's sequence: 12x1min, 12x400, 8x600, 6x800, 5x1k then 4x1200 is that the workouts get progressively harder and harder each week, but you are also progressing so they are always at about the same effort. As the weeks go by and your lungs/heart are stronger you are able to go longer and longer, until race day when you try a 1x5K workout with no rests.

                    PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

                    Up next: no idea

                    Tool to generate Strava weekly

                    zebano


                       

                       

                      RP - The problem is Jack D's formula. It's too aggressive, it might only work for super fast people like the elites.

                      To me it's senseless to use 3K pace for a 5K race. Why not use 5k pace for a 5k race, that sounds a lot more logical.
                      "How does a 6x800m compare to a 5x1M or 4x1.2k workout? they're the same distance at the same effort so how does it all play together?"
                      The difference is how long you recover. The shorter the interval the longer is the recovery proportionally.
                      Ex: 12x400 w 400 jogs versus 6x800 w 400 jogs. The 12x400 is much easier because you are recovering for longer.
                      The idea with the Hanson's sequence: 12x1min, 12x400, 8x600, 6x800, 5x1k then 4x1200 is that the workouts get progressively harder and harder each week, but you are also progressing so they are always at about the same effort. As the weeks go by and your lungs/heart are stronger you are able to go longer and longer, until race day when you try a 1x5K workout with no rests.

                       

                      Flavio - He's not giving you specific race pace practice, that's more of a bonus. The goal is time spent at vVO2max.

                      1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                      SteveChCh


                      Hot Weather Complainer

                        Dorothea - Welcome!  Also, that is a very cool name.  You have a very good running pedigree there.  I hope you stick around through to next year when we move on to a new thread.

                         

                        I think using the February marathon as part of the build up to the ultra is a good plan but I definitely wouldn't run it all out (unless you have some freakish recovery ability).  Personally, I'd want 5-6 months minimum between marathons (keeping in mind I haven't run as many as you), let alone before doing an ultra.  So it would be hard to get revenge on the marathon then do an ultra a month later.  But if you do the ultra then look at a marathon 5+ months later, I think you'll get your vindication.  It's hard to wait that long though, believe me I understand the feeling of wanting to cash in after a tough race.

                        5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23

                         

                        2024 Races:

                        Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

                        Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024

                        Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024

                        Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

                        flavio80


                        Intl. correspondent

                           

                          Flavio - He's not giving you specific race pace practice, that's more of a bonus. The goal is time spent at vVO2max.

                           

                          Yeah, I get that idea, however, 4x1200 at 3k pace seems way too much.

                          This is the problem with standard plans, they will not take into consideration the individuality of the athlete, different people have different needs at different times.

                          Though Jack D does his best to explain the logic behind it.

                           

                          There are people like me who like a more gentle approach and will burn out quickly if going too strong, and other people like Keen who like it rough and do insane stuff like 7x1200 ( I promise I'm talking about running training here 😂 ). From my point of view what Keen does is the equivalent of sprinting into a wall until it breaks down, but he obviously is strong enough to handle that much load in a workout.

                          PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

                          Up next: no idea

                          Tool to generate Strava weekly

                          dktrotter


                          Dorothea

                            I mean.... I just wanted to shake it up a little bit. Break out of the bubble. Try new things. "Give it a go" as my Welsh run partner one day once said (western states pacing). It's like a family trip to the same place with the same stops and the same attractions. There is an entirely different set of stops I've wanted to check out along with a whole side of the map no one knows anything about. What's over there? What's that like? What kind of trouble are we not experiencing by staying in our comfortable bubble?

                             

                            That makes a lot of sense, RP. I like the way you describe it. I haven't done more than two training cycles with the same plan either... mostly because I'm also ways trying new things. I just thought maybe there was something about Hanson's that you didn't like.

                             

                            Thanks also for your feedback about the ultra! Yeah, I guess I would be tempted to go into that race for a PR, and not as a training run, and that would probably be bad for the ultra. Maybe I shouldn't even do it. But your advice about treating the aid stations as a NASCAR pit stop is great. I already kind of train like that during at-home time trials, so it would be easy to translate. Just need to figure out what food works for me, ha ha. The ginger ale is already on my list!

                            Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

                            Last race: Community 5K, March 2nd. Speed test run with 2 walk breaks. Went pretty well.  

                            ch17


                            It's Tuesday every day

                              Hello! Catching up as usual...

                               

                              darkwave: nice race!!

                               

                              flavio: I don't break the 25 reps up into sets mostly because I'm too impatient to do more than one set. Also: I only have 10-15 min to get thru the weight room in any given visit - it's wedged between running and showering (which I do at work).

                               

                              Dorothea: welcome!

                               

                              Krash: one sick mileage week. WTG.

                              dktrotter


                              Dorothea

                                Thanks Steve, Flavio, ch and RP for the welcome!

                                 

                                Dorothea - Welcome!  Also, that is a very cool name.  You have a very good running pedigree there.  I hope you stick around through to next year when we move on to a new thread.

                                 

                                I think using the February marathon as part of the build up to the ultra is a good plan but I definitely wouldn't run it all out (unless you have some freakish recovery ability).  Personally, I'd want 5-6 months minimum between marathons (keeping in mind I haven't run as many as you), let alone before doing an ultra.  So it would be hard to get revenge on the marathon then do an ultra a month later.  But if you do the ultra then look at a marathon 5+ months later, I think you'll get your vindication.  It's hard to wait that long though, believe me I understand the feeling of wanting to cash in after a tough race.

                                 

                                And thanks for the head's up for the thread shift, Steve! I'll try to make sure I move with y'all.

                                 

                                Thanks also for your ideas about the race. I think I knew this in my head, but needed to hear it from others for actually following through. You're right. It is hard. If I hadn't been signed up for this ultra, I would probably have wanted to go for the next marathon as soon as possible. But  maybe it's a good thing that I'm already signed up. I can commit to this right now  and not worry about a marathon PR for now. Maybe for a fall race? I'll have to see about some destination races for that.

                                 

                                My two cents about 6 x 800 versus 5 x 1 mile, etc. I think Flavio said it well. But it is about the recovery time decreasing and the build-up to holding the same pace for longer distances.

                                Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

                                Last race: Community 5K, March 2nd. Speed test run with 2 walk breaks. Went pretty well.