2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 497 times)

Mikkey


Mmmm Bop

     

     I've been wondering about GPS versus course accuracy, and I was wondering what folks on here thought about that. I know a few people who take their GPS PRs as PRs, even on USATF certified courses. I guess it's fine if they then use that as their baseline to train harder... but unless a course really is measured long due to human error, wouldn't one adhere to the measured course time?

     

    Using GPS time instead of a certified course distance is absolutely ridiculous!

    For example when I ran the Eastbourne Trackstar Marathon in 2019 my watch showed 28 miles. If I’d stopped my watch at 26.2 then I’d claim to be a Sub2:50 marathoner. 

    https://www.strava.com/activities/2358741670

    5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

    darkwave


    Mother of Cats

      Happy holidays to all my competitive jerk pals!  May all of our pets wear ugly clothing into the new year!

       

      (and welcome to DKtrotter!)

       

      Regarding what does or does not count as a PR - there's a million takes on what does and does not count.  Some people only count certified courses (that's me), some people will only count a PR if the net drop meets a certain standard (that's also me), some people won't count the PR if it's not on a record-eligible course (not me), some people won't count the PR if one was wearing certain shoes (also not me).

       

      I will comment that it seems a bit unfair to hold our non-US friends to the standard of only running PRs on USATF certified courses.  I know that there's also World Athletics and AIMS certification for larger non-US races, but I honestly don't know whether those in Europe, New Zealand, or elsewhere have the same availability of smaller races with certified courses that we do in the US.

       

      ***

      Flavio - nice job on the long run.  Honestly, I think that an 82 minute half is not that far out of your grasp right now.

       

      Steve - which HRM did you order?  Also, nice job inserting a dead zone reference to supplement DKTrotter's resurrection of the "what counts as a PR" debate.  Things will stay lively over the holiday break.

       

      CK - now that you are our supreme leader, I suggest you change your title to Cobra Commander Keen.

       

      ***

       

      65 miles running, 3.5 hours pool-running, and 500 yards swimming.

      M: 90 minutes pool-running
      T: 8 miles very easy on treadmill (9:48) and upper/lower body weights.
      W: Streaming yoga and 12 miles very easy (9:36) plus drills and hill sprints.
      Th: 2 hours pool-running and upper body weights/core.
      F: 11 miles with 8K tempo in 36:52 - splits were 7:43/7:33/7:25/7:12/6:59. Followed with leg strengthwork.
      Sa: 12.5 miles very easy (9:27) plus drills and hill sprints, and then streaming yoga.
      Su: 21 miles progressive, split as the first 7 miles averaging 9:16 pace, the next 7 miles averaging 8:25 pace, and the next 7 miles averaging 7:36 pace. Half mile cooldown jog, followed by leg injury prevention work and 500 yards recovery swimming.

      To address the elephant in my weekly training log - that tempo run was not intended to be progressive. It's just that the tempo started at 6:30 am (well before sunrise) and my gait issues are really exacerbated in the dark. With each mile I could see a bit better and so my legs worked a bit better.

       

      I started that tempo planning on doing 3-4 miles, but I decided mid-tempo that the first 2 miles didn't count, and so I extended it to 5 miles.

      Sunday's 21-miler (the last of my very short Houston marathon training cycle) was supposed to be next weekend, but the forecast is for really cold/dry air, which is very hard on my asthma, so I swapped the long run to this weekend. The good news about the long run is that the distance felt very easy, and I wasn't very tired when I finished (I just wish my legs would move faster). So I think I'm ready for the distance and can spend the next 4 weeks just focusing on faster stuff.

      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

       

      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

      SteveChCh


      Hot Weather Complainer

        darkwave - I've got the Garmin HRM Pro.  It's just arrived and I'm about to give it a test run, although all seems to be working on a test walk.  It's exciting to now add accurate HR data to the mix to nail down these zones.

         

        Nice week and great to hear the race looks like a go.

        5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23

         

        2024 Races:

        Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

        Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024

        Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024

        Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

           

          To I think I'm ready for the distance and can spend the next 4 weeks just focusing on faster stuff.


          dw - Awesome, I’m hoping for good things for you. Have you run Houston before? People I know speak very highly of it; usually a good opportunity for a fast race.

          Dave

          Running Problem


          Problem Child

            skipping over most of the conversation had about two threads. It was tried. It didn't work. It's why things are separate from each other, AND equal (remember that time I said separate but equal and people were pissed off? ) TO each other. Both benefit from having a group training mentality where people can ask questions and obtain advice. Even if they didn't ask for it.

             

            DK: I'm going to shorten your name to DK because I can. You'll have to ask JMac to put up his TDP (Temp + Dew Point) training scale. It's actually helpful, and for me (high desert) I pretty much NEVER get to sandbag any training. I think I could do some 3 minute 800s after some training. Here are some I did at 3:09/800m. I went sub-3 this year. https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/7529377813

             

             

            Keen You're going to need to keep the spreadsheet, Strava link, TDP rules, and maybe a "famous" quotes section for the year 2023. Well....you don't have to. I'll just miss it and ask frequently.

             

            Dwave I second the name change for Keen. I hope the new meds also work out well. Seriously, I would probably just quit running with how much work it seems like you have to put into keep going. I'm sure it's been covered, but do doctors say running/exercising helps with your meds and treatment? Your tempo runs sounds like a few of my M paced runs.

             

            My week

            I kind of just jumped into Boston training. I picked a speed workout to do and went out too fast, then finished the workout at what I could actually do. 6:15/1.2km.

            Thursday after a work event I did 6M at 6:40/mi pace. It felt good. Not just running fast, or thinking about running a marathon at 6:40/mi pace, but just the running FELT good. It felt like exactly what I needed.

            Saturday sucked. I woke up at 1am, fell back asleep probably around 5am, then woke up again just before 8am. Thankfully i'd talked with a guy about doing a run together, and he hit me up. It was so cold my super mittens (salomon mittens JMac recommended a few yeras ago) were not enough to keep my hands warm on the 6 mile run back home. I think it was 23F, but it felt MUCH colder. Sunday's weather was the same on paper, and the mittens felt warmer. Perhaps the top layer I wore was a little warmer and helped the gloves keep my hands warm. I was really only looking to do 5, and when others wanted to go father I just went along for the ride. I grabbed a new street since I'm "competing" with a buddy to run every street in Reno. NOW I work from home 100% again, so I might be getting more miles in random places again.

             

             

            Weekly for period: From: 12/12/2022 To 12/18/2022

            Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
            in ft
            12/12 That time it was shit from the beginning. 8.73 14.05 01:10:58 08:08 05:03 266
            12/13 That time it’s time to focus on more important things. 6.56 10.55 00:53:47 08:12 05:06 325
            12/14 That time I said I wanted to go faster than yesterday. 7.90 12.71 01:00:33 07:40 04:46 371
            12/15 That time a short and shorts probably wasn’t ideal clothing. 9.72 15.64 01:10:04 07:13 04:29 157
            12/17 That time my plans were changed for me. 12.18 19.60 01:38:34 08:06 05:02 210
            12/18 That time I was the only one who thought we were going short. 8.16 13.12 01:08:53 08:26 05:15 338

            Total distance: 53.25mi

            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

            VDOT 53.37 

            5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

            flavio80


            Intl. correspondent

              DK - I will use the official time whenever possible, except if the course was short, or too long.
              Also, measured course means jack if they place the turn cones on the wrong spots.
              Here's my current situation of PRs:
              1500m - 0:04:54 - Time trial because a race got cancelled. My running coach also timed it.

              3000m - 0:10:34 - Track race, official result.
              5K - 0:17:56 - Time trial because pandemic
              10K - 0:38:01 - GPS time because the course was 2% long. I consider up to 1% as a usual GPS deviation.
              This decision also takes into consideration that I ran 36:40 for 9.86K in 2020, which would be a 37:20 10K if I had noticed it at the time and ran through the finish line.
              Half - 1h22 - Time trial because of the pandemic
              Marathon - 3h05 - Official result.

               

              DW - an 82 min half is within grasp, but I certainly need to climb a few ladders beforehand. My recent 10K PR is 38 minutes which is 3:48/6:05 pace and my half PR is 3:53/6:13 pace.

              My rule of thumb is you add about 10-12 seconds per K when you roughly double the distance(I guess 15 to 20s per mile). It's closer to 10s for faster people.

              So I derive that my current predicted half pace is 3:48 + 10s = 3:58 = about 1h24 (6:05 + 15 = 6:20 in make believe units). When I can run 37:30 for 10k I'll be close to PRing on the half.

               

              RP - how do you track that? Do you use a heat map? Or you just have a list of all the streets and you cross them one by one after your runs?

              PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

              Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race

              Tool to generate Strava weekly

              darkwave


              Mother of Cats

                Dave - I've run the Houston Half twice (2018 and 2020).  Never done the full, so I figured what the heck.   I was going back and forth between Houston, Louisiana, and RNR Phoenix, but Houston is the easiest travel-wise.

                 

                RP - the neurologist is strongly in favor of my continuing to run and race.  One of the reasons I ran Chicago this fall is that he thought it was a good idea to do so.  Essentially hard aerobic exercise is believed to be neuroprotective, and exercise is considered to be part of the treatment plan for many neurological disorders.  Now - the level of exercise that I engage in is a lot more than what is normally prescribed.  But....it's my baseline, and so we want to keep me there rather than pull back.

                 

                Re: the cold weather and the mittens working better one day than the other - was the humidity different on the two days?  I find that when it gets really cold, the cold is much worse if the humidity is higher.  A super dry cold is actually not that chilling to the body (though it's hard on the lungs).

                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                 

                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                CommanderKeen


                Cobra Commander Keen

                  Steve - Nice week there, and I'm looking forward to see what you can really do with a different training approach.


                  DWave - Once again I'm in complete agreement with you regarding PRs.
                  Nice week, and am I'm really interested to see how the rest of your training and Houston go.


                  2022 in Review

                   

                  It was the slowest of years, it was the fastest of years.

                  The slowest because my average running pace across the entire year is slower than any full year of running I've ever had (discounting the 5 months of 2015 when I first started). This is undoubtedly due to my increased volume this year and the easy doubles that went with it.


                  The fastest as I've PR'd every distance I raced (5k x2, HM, M) and also twice logged my fastest-ever (by GPS) mile during two of those races. I should actually try racing a mile, if I can ever find an actual mile race.


                  Even with those PRs, I consider all except the marathon to be soft. Per my coach's instructions I held back a bit during my PR 5k and also came within easy striking range of my HM PR (set during the spring) in a fall HM in which I (again per coach instructions) held back a good bit for the first 15k.


                  All in all I don't know that I could have had a better year.


                  Going in to 2023 my first order of business will likely be to get a new HM PR/NYC qualifier for 2024 - the last part of that should be "easy" given that I'll be getting an old man time bonus for that year. After that I'll be setting my sights on longer distance stuff. How much longer remains to be seen.

                  Oh, and I'll have to get the Competitive Jerks Racing Thread started up before any of this. And yes, I do fully plan on stealing the first post resources.

                  5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

                   

                  Upcoming Races:

                   

                  OKC Memorial 5k - April 27

                   

                  Running Problem


                  Problem Child

                    darkwave I don't think the humidity changed at all. I THINK it was the layers I work. UnderArmour Cold gear top one day, Nike cold gear top with long sleeves I can wrap my hands in, and a long sleeve shirt the next. Also, possibly having my wrist exposed was enough for the cold to reach my fingers after an hour of being outside. My right hand is currently really cold and I'm sitting inside my house.

                    I was having a talk with "my usual Saturday morning" buddy about how "we" (marathoners, and us doing what we're doing) are probably in a 1% of some 1% group far beyond the average hobby jogger who does 6 miles a week. Some people train to run 13 miles. WE just go out and do it. So the level of your excercise being far and beyond is just because of who they're comparing it to. Best of luck on the new meds. Hope it works out. I still remember you passing me at CIM and me having no clue how to "run by feel" at that point.

                     

                     

                     

                    Flavio City strides. it matches up with Strava, so it counts walking and cycling as well. They have the outline of my city already loaded. When I ran my zip code I uploaded my runs into Google Earth and created the border for my ZipCode. I think loading them was more fun, because some of these "streets" aren't accessable. Gates and things get in the way. I think some of their data is a cell phone *ping* from a user ONE TIME while others are just plans submitted to the city. Sure, this will be a road, when the developer comes through in a decade. Just because they named the street in 1996 in some plans doesn't mean it is a street.

                    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                    VDOT 53.37 

                    5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22


                    Pain is my friend

                      Another great week. I backed off a little bit. Big runs were Thursday running in a slushy snow storm. Saturdays training run marathon started at 7 degrees and didn't warm up much. Will start tapering after Thursday.

                       

                      Weekly for period: From: 12/12/2022 To 12/18/2022

                      Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                      in ft
                      12/12 Morning chat with Jeff and Darl 10.30 16.58 01:23:51 08:08 05:03 233
                      12/13 I remember that street and that one. That street is new. Let’s run that one or the dead end. Jeff won’t know I did one without him. 🤔 10.11 16.26 01:21:05 08:01 04:59 220
                      12/14 It’s always a good day when you can run outside in the snow in shorts. 8.06 12.97 01:13:36 09:08 05:40 128
                      12/15 Striding out through the snow storm with Walker 20.20 32.51 02:40:41 07:57 04:57 892
                      12/16 Freezing my aaaa….nkle off 10.04 16.16 01:19:49 07:57 04:56 446
                      12/17 Barkleys marathon training and 7° 26.22 42.19 03:24:06 07:47 04:50 922

                      Total distance: 84.94mi

                      ATY 24   141.445 2019 1st

                      Bear 100 22:08 2021 

                      Jackpot 100 Feb 14:59 - 5th

                      St George marathon Oct 2:58

                      ATY 24 130.969 2022 2nd

                       

                      Pulse endurance 12 hour 76.22 1ST CR

                      July Backyard ultra 22 yards Win

                      Sept Bear 100 24:08

                       

                      SteveChCh


                      Hot Weather Complainer

                         

                        I'll be interested to see if you beat me for the year.  I'm on 4,033km, the way things are going, you may just over take me! 

                         

                        I don't think so, I'm 60km behind (4055km - 3994km as of this morning) and hopefully you're back to normal now!  It shows how much volume at high quality you do, considering I've done 1.5 marathon cycles and will still finish with slightly lower volume.  You've also missed more time than me with illness although Covid did set me back 2-3 weeks worth of volume.

                         

                        I used my chest HRM for the first time last night.  It takes a bit of getting used to comfort wise but I was very happy with the data I got back - I was consistently right on or around 130bpm which is in the middle of my "easy" zone (although this may get tweaked after we get some more data and I do the 5km).  Once we have that data the plan is to set workouts by HR zones rather than speed which will be great given I tend to miss the speeds usually by going too fast.  Along with the strength training it just feels like I'm doing everything a little bit better, although it's very early days.  I'm excited to see how it works out, even in the 5km next week.  I know my training changes won't make any difference to the 5km but the advantage of not having raced enough is there are soft PRs to take down.  I've done very little speed but surely I can beat my 5km PR, set in the second half of the Motorway 10km.  I'm claiming PRs in all distances from 5km to marathon in 2022 so it makes sense that I actually run a 5km....

                        5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23

                         

                        2024 Races:

                        Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

                        Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024

                        Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024

                        Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

                        Marky_Mark_17


                           

                          I don't think so, I'm 60km behind (4055km - 3994km as of this morning) and hopefully you're back to normal now!  It shows how much volume at high quality you do, considering I've done 1.5 marathon cycles and will still finish with slightly lower volume.  You've also missed more time than me with illness although Covid did set me back 2-3 weeks worth of volume.

                           

                           

                          Mostly back to normal, thanks.  HR still tracking a little high but everything else still seems to be getting back to normal.  It took a week or two last time for it to properly settle down so I'm not surprised.  I'll probably start to build up this week and depending how that goes, back to full training load next week.  Punishingly humid here so that does not help.

                           

                          I will finish the year a little behind each of the last two years (4,437km / 4,373km), most likely around the mid to high 4,100km.  That's not a big surprise given I've raced more, been sick more (probably the equivalent of 3 weeks or so of training), and we've spent a lot less time in lockdowns.

                           

                          I did try a chest strap HR for a while but didn't find it gave me materially different data to my wrist HRM, plus it got a bit annoying so I just stuck with the wrist HR.  IIRC your watch was giving some weird readings though so makes sense to use something that works.

                          3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                          10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                          * Net downhill course

                          Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48

                          Up next: Runway5, 4 May

                          "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                          SteveChCh


                          Hot Weather Complainer

                            I did try a chest strap HR for a while but didn't find it gave me materially different data to my wrist HRM, plus it got a bit annoying so I just stuck with the wrist HR.  IIRC your watch was giving some weird readings though so makes sense to use something that works.

                             

                            It very often gets stuck on a value halfway through a run and stays there until the end when it can't be right - on Saturday it did that in warm conditions and with some late Aerobic Threshold kms.  Having said that, the readings I got yesterday from the chest strap were what I'd have expected based on my watch data.  The main reason is so that Andy can be confident about my zones when planning the training - he has less faith in the watch than me, saying it's basically useless unless you wear it uncomfortably tight.  He did mention some studies but I haven't investigated any further.

                            5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23

                             

                            2024 Races:

                            Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

                            Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024

                            Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024

                            Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

                            Marky_Mark_17


                              The main reason is so that Andy can be confident about my zones when planning the training - he has less faith in the watch than me, saying it's basically useless unless you wear it uncomfortably tight.  He did mention some studies but I haven't investigated any further.

                               

                              In your case, your watch has definitely been doing some weird stuff.

                               

                              If you look at DCRainmaker's blog, which tests most watches alongside both other wrist-based HRM's and a chest strap, what it usually shows is that wrist-based HRM's are generally pretty accurate, typically within 2bpm or so of a chest-based HR.  You get the odd blip here and there, and sometimes they can be slightly slower to pick up significant increases or decreases in effort compared to a chest strap, but in general they're close enough.

                              3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                              10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                              * Net downhill course

                              Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48

                              Up next: Runway5, 4 May

                              "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                              ch17


                              It's Tuesday every day

                                (Aaack - just deleted my carefully crafted 11-17 Dec 2022 report! Y'all got lucky. )

                                 

                                Hello! 11-17 Dec in a nutshell:

                                 

                                58.5 mi @ 9:45 min/mi. No LR but 5k race (Dec 17th) in 24:48 << slower than I'd like, for sure, but 40 s faster than on exactly the same course four weeks ago, and enough to wrap up a win in the 2022 Ed Barron Holiday series 50-59 F AG. Also: 25*130 lb on leg press machine Monday, 25*135 lb on Wed.

                                 

                                About the race series: there are five races (George Washington's birthday, Easter, 4th of July, Thanksgiving and Christmas). I'd won the 50-59 AG in 2020 and 2021, but this year got thoroughly beaten (deservedly so) every single time out by a fast newcomer. So I trailed all year until race #4, which for some reason she didn't run, after which I took a two-point lead. She ran and beat me this Saturday, too, but since she got five points for that performance and I got four, I ended up eking out the series win by one point, 21-20.

                                 

                                Got lucky!

                                 

                                In other news: my goal was to run 3000 mi for 2022. I'm at 2988.3 mi. Fingers crossed.

                                 

                                darkwave: Awesome week, and was nice to see you Sunday. You looked very perky for somebody doing a 20-miler!