2022 Advanced Marathoning Thread (Read 301 times)

JMac11


Milkman

    I would echo a lot of darkwave's thoughts (as usual): find a race with more people in the 2:50-3:00 range. The numbers you cited do not inspire confidence in me: that's basically one person every 60 seconds at the finish, which means you're running the race basically alone. I think experience runners can certainly do that as they know the mental game, but first time that would be rough. NJM has about 100 people in that time range, which means you will be running with others almost the entire race except for a few periods where you may be in no man's land.

     

    If you can't travel at all though for one night, that is going to severely limit your ability to race marathons in the future. I can find a ton of 5Ks, 10Ks, and half marathons within one hour. Finding good marathons for sub 3 hour marathoners is much, much harder. Just my opinion though, some people find success with their one hometown marathon.

     

    I'd also say crushed gravel would be my nightmare for a marathon. Would any of the super shoes even properly bounce off that?

    5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

     

    Next Race: Grandma's Marathon (6/18)

      Jmac: I appreciate your input as well. The crushed gravel is more like a cinder track than gravel. It's firm and has decent traction. As Darkwave pointed out, not quite as solid as a paved surface, but I've done a lot of miles on it and it isn't bad at all. I didn't think about the fact that even though there are that many runners in that zone, the gaps are still pretty large in terms of distance. Thanks for pointing that out. As for running multiple marathons, who knows? I'm not convinced yet that is something I'll be doing. This is very exploratory. Much appreciated!

      Next Races: Fools Run 10 mile (4/2/22), York Marathon (5/15/2214/23), Stupid Marathon TT (June 2022)

      darkwave


      Mother of Cats

        I totally understand wanting to run a local race. It takes a burden off your mind not having to travel and being familiar with the area. This is what Hartford is for me, NYC for JMac, and CIM for Cal.

         

        I have to admit, I really prefer travelling for marathons (note: I have no kids, so that probably helps).

         

        When I travel for a race, I can basically lounge around the hotel room for the last 24 hours before, resting up and focusing on my race.  I can be selfish - that day is all about me.  When I stay local, I end up getting pulled into housework, running X errands, etc.   I run much better at all distances when I have that period of solitude before.

         

        I've never done a local marathon for that reason, among others.

        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

         

        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

          Darkwave: SO not me haha! I am adverse to travel, especially being away from family and home. If I can avoid it, I do. I dislike hotels, lounging, and using an entire day for a race. Just not my style. Honestly, if I do York my plan is to be at church by 10:45 am (6:30 am start).

          Next Races: Fools Run 10 mile (4/2/22), York Marathon (5/15/2214/23), Stupid Marathon TT (June 2022)

          darkwave


          Mother of Cats

            Jmac: I appreciate your input as well. The crushed gravel is more like a cinder track than gravel. It's firm and has decent traction. As Darkwave pointed out, not quite as solid as a paved surface, but I've done a lot of miles on it and it isn't bad at all.

             

            I imagine that it's similar to our C&O Towpath  

             

            It's not as slow as gravel, but over a distance of 20+ miles, it will be a bit slower than pavement, and take its toll.  Of course, if you train on that surface all the time, it may affect you less.  Additionally, 26+ miles of asphalt might be hard on legs unused to that.

             

            I should also note that over the marathon distance, pancake flat cases can be hard on the body.  It's slightly counter-intuitive, but gently rolling courses can be easier on the body than pancakes, since you can vary the muscles you use.  Again, if you train on flat all of the time, including your 20+ mile long runs, this will be less of an issue.

            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

             

            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

            darkwave


            Mother of Cats

              Darkwave: SO not me haha! I am adverse to travel, especially being away from family and home. If I can avoid it, I do. I dislike hotels, lounging, and using an entire day for a race. Just not my style. Honestly, if I do York my plan is to be at church by 10:45 am (6:30 am start).

               

              I actually hate travel (the legacy of spending my teenage years and the early part of my career living out of a suitcase - I'm just DONE with travel).  But I prefer it for races because it helps me focus.  In much the same way that some people absolutely MUST go into an office for work, and aren't as productive when telecommuting.

              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

               

              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

              AceHarris


                I'm kind of mixed on travel and course familiarity for races.

                If I can know every step of the course my confidence goes way up. An unexpected hill or section can get to me mentally. I typically "study" any marathon course I'm running and ask for reviews from other runners. Our local marathon is a decently tough course and only 500-700 do the full marathon so not much competition and few around 3:00. Even with that, I can run very well there because there are no surprises.

                However, I do like traveling for a marathon. Similar reasons to DW. You're there to race, no regular life distractions. As long as I can obtain the typical food I eat pre-race, I'm good to go. So maybe the best for me (if I want to compete) is to repetitively travel to the same marathon?

                 

                Slacking a bit this week. Rain/Snow mix yesterday caused me to not run. Temps in the teens this morning with icy roads so skipped my run. May try to get it in this afternoon. That's always a challenge with work and kids. I think I need to get a treadmill, but I honestly think I would only use it 10 times a year. So maybe not worth it.

                Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 17:09 (2021), 10k: 35:54 (2021), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:53:18 (2021)

                  I'm kind of mixed on travel and course familiarity for races.

                  If I can know every step of the course my confidence goes way up. An unexpected hill or section can get to me mentally. I typically "study" any marathon course I'm running and ask for reviews from other runners. Our local marathon is a decently tough course and only 500-700 do the full marathon so not much competition and few around 3:00. Even with that, I can run very well there because there are no surprises.

                  However, I do like traveling for a marathon. Similar reasons to DW. You're there to race, no regular life distractions. As long as I can obtain the typical food I eat pre-race, I'm good to go. So maybe the best for me (if I want to compete) is to repetitively travel to the same marathon?

                   

                  Slacking a bit this week. Rain/Snow mix yesterday caused me to not run. Temps in the teens this morning with icy roads so skipped my run. May try to get it in this afternoon. That's always a challenge with work and kids. I think I need to get a treadmill, but I honestly think I would only use it 10 times a year. So maybe not worth it.

                   

                  I love running in the snow, so I look for ways to get out in the worst of it. Maybe it's my Alaskan roots.

                   

                  I've heard good things about yaxtraks and microspikes for ice. I might eventually pick up a pair.

                  Next Races: Fools Run 10 mile (4/2/22), York Marathon (5/15/2214/23), Stupid Marathon TT (June 2022)

                  SteveChCh


                  Hot Weather Complainer

                    Interesting chat about racing local or travelling.  Like darkwave I enjoy checking into a hotel mid to late afternoon the night before a race and doing absolutely nothing until going to bed before 9pm.  Having said that, I have rarely performed as well away as I do at home.  I haven't worked out if the travel takes a toll (despite restricting any travel to short flights the day before).  Unlike darkwave, I don't have a pre-race franchise eating go to option so when I'm away I can't usually make my traditional pasta dinner.

                     

                    New Zealand being tiny and sparsely populated, there's only a handful of races that guarantee you'll have people to race with all the way to finish.  Even the Christchurch marathon, my target race this year, which is probably the 3rd or 4th largest in NZ, doesn't have a huge field.  All races start together and the full is 2 laps of the half so for 21km I'll have tons of people around.  From about 32-40km, the race goes through the "red zone", a suburban area mostly wiped out by the 2011 earthquake so it feels like a ghost town.  Driveways with no houses, and damaged roads in places.  I'm already mentally preparing for that, I may be lucky enough to be in a group of 4-5 people or at least have that many within 60 seconds of me.  The positive is that with 2 laps, and each lap passing close to the start/finish around 9km, I will see my support crew quite a few times.

                    Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                    Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                    Race plan:  Wellington Half Marathon June 19, 2022 (likely marathon tempo session). Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022

                    darkwave


                    Mother of Cats

                      There's a screw shoes joke somewhere in here....

                       

                      I have a pair of Yak-Trax, but I've never used them.  My issue is that around here, wintry weather results in a mix of surfaces - shallow snow, deep snow, icy slush, black ice, bare pavement.  There's no real solution that works for all of those.  If it was reliably one surface for most/all of a run, that would be different.

                       

                       

                      I used to rely on a half-mile stretch of pavement underneath an overpass in DC - "Water Street" was essentially where the DC running community would gather to run after snow/ice storms (some crazy people did 20+ mile long runs under there).  But the local government recently "improved" that area - they narrowed it and added speed bumps and a traffic circle of all things.  So now that's no longer a good running option.

                      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                       

                      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                      Running Problem


                      Problem Child

                        I'm more of the "I travel for travel, and will add racing" type. My wife might disagree. I've traveled for Chicago and while I was there to race I wanted to do MORE than just show up and run the marathon. I'm a lot less likely to travel for a 5k and I got over traveling for half marathons when they stopped being an appeal (i.e. Rock and Roll SF PR attempt). I don't MIND the travel. I'd just rather travel and mix in some running. Heck the 5k I PR'd last year I'd never even thought about running until I looked specifically for a race that weekend.

                         

                        ace I've run in YaxTrax. I like them. Heck, when we had ice/snow mix I was still running paces you'd expect to see on clean roads. I think a friend commented on one too, and I might have posted some photos of them on Strava. I have the spikes under the forefoot and once you're willing to trust them on ice it's so easy to just run without thinking you'll slip. On roads you'll obviously hear them click, and I got over the "oh no I'm wearing out my spikes!" feeling really quick. I think, much like a treadmill, I've used them 5 times a year. Enough to say "well you don't have a treadmill and you wanted those so you wouldn't skip a run soooooo..."

                         

                        steveChCh Perhaps I can convince the wife to stay in NZ long enough for me to run the marathon. I could maybe do it as a scenic tour of the area I'll literally never see again.

                         

                        crushed gravel Honestly, if you can train on it I don't see why it would be such a detriment. I guess when all you've run is paved asphalt roads you'd be concerned about slipping just a little every single step. I've found some of those roads can be just as hard as any other, and other than the crunching type noise you hear each step there isn't much reason to worry. As darkwave pretty much said, if you're trained for it you'll be fine and I personally think training for the course is required. I'd never run another Revel Marathon without doing MASSIVE downhill runs along with downhill speed work.

                         

                        darkwave "I'm from the Government. I'm here to help. Trust me. We're going to improve this." I can't remember who was saying screw shoes were so great. Wasn't it a triathlete who lived in California and also admired women in a half marathon? Like literally said "go to Home Depot and put screws into your shoes to run on ice."

                        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                        VDOT 54.9

                        5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                        JMac11


                        Milkman

                          Travel - I agree with JT and Ace that I love the NYCM because I can sleep in my own bed and run a course I know like the back of my hand. However, I dont' know how much of that is also because it's, well, NYCM, i.e. would I be so excited to run it this year if it was just a random, 1K person event? Hard to say. But just the thought of standing on the Verazzano Bridge at the start gives me chills, and I don't feel like that about any other race, even Boston.

                           

                          I will say I agree with DW about the travel part though. It's a nice excuse to get away and sit around a hotel and do absolutely nothing. When I'm home, there always some household chore I feel like I should be doing. On the flipside, I've never traveled for a marathon and not run a PR. That, I imagine, would make for a terrible journey back.

                           

                          Gravel - is it really just an issue of getting used to it? I could probably get used to running on a beach every day. I cannot imagine I would ever run a sub 3 hour beach marathon even if I did. Maybe the foot slippage issue isn't as big as I think, but it would be cool to see the difference between asphalt and gravel.

                           

                          Steve - that's a very dystopian vision. Regarding racing in numbers, it makes a huge difference in a marathon, much moreso than any other race. The problem is, you often get stuck with these choices: do I keep running with this group that is 5 seconds per mile off my pace, or do I give up and go into no man's land? When you have a huge field, that choice is easy: always abandon the group. When you make that decision in a small race and realize you may never see anohter person the rest of the race, it is much harder.

                           

                          Yaktrax - for all the awfulness that NYC running entails (traffic, navigating incredibly crowded sidewalks with everyone staring at their phone, uber-agressive MAMILs), perhaps the greatest benefit is winter running is never an issue for me. Yes, I can't go out in a middle of a snowstorm. But take yesterday for example: snowed about 5 inches overnight. By the evening, the roads in CP looked as if it didnt snow, and salt was down everywhere to prevent icing. I ran once in Montreal 2 years ago and it was a nightmare. I commend all of you who deal with this on a consistent basis.

                          5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                           

                          Next Race: Grandma's Marathon (6/18)

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                             

                             

                            Gravel - is it really just an issue of getting used to it? I could probably get used to running on a beach every day. I cannot imagine I would ever run a sub 3 hour beach marathon even if I did. Maybe the foot slippage issue isn't as big as I think, but it would be cool to see the difference between asphalt and gravel.

                             

                            I think the substance he is talking about is crushed stone, which is distinct from gravel.  Think the Reservoir Loop in Central Park.

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                               

                              I think the substance he is talking about is crushed stone, which is distinct from gravel.  Think the Reservoir Loop in Central Park.

                              I'd liken it to the old school cinder tracks. That's the majority of our local rail trail. It's got some 1-2% grades as well, but really flat, especially compared to the roads around here. Splits are always faster there than anywhere else locally. We refer to is as "rail trail speed" or "rail trail watts".

                              Next Races: Fools Run 10 mile (4/2/22), York Marathon (5/15/2214/23), Stupid Marathon TT (June 2022)

                              Cyberic


                                I ran once in Montreal 2 years ago and it was a nightmare. I commend all of you who deal with this on a consistent basis.

                                 

                                I have not introduced myself as is customary in this thread, but there are lots of posts, and I would not read them all and respond and comment...

                                 

                                But I randomly read this post and since I live in Montreal, run all winter long outside whatever the conditions, this made me smile. I actually think Montreal is a pretty decent town for running in Quebec standards, if you know where to go (Botanical Garden in the winter, or Mount Royal). That is for running. But training here, having to do intervals and tempo runs on a weekly basis in the winter, it will be problematic some weeks.

                                 

                                Thanks for making me feel like a warrior for doing it !