2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 497 times)

I'm actually curious to see what some people on here have to say about this. I can't tell how I feel about ideal long run length, other than that it should probably be put in the context of weekly mileage. Some people seem to never go over 18 miles, some go 24-25 even. I've heard/read that you start hitting diminishing returns after 2 hours or so. Not sure how true that is.

I think, in general, for most people some rules / common recommendations are working ok. But, I also followed plenty of runners through more than 10 years to see that there are plenty of exceptions. I saw runners who would never run more than 16 miles as LRs and had their best races and I knew a runner who were running 26+ miles LRs - week, after week, after week and had a race of their life at the end. So, I would recommend to everybody try as much different approaches as possible and see what works best for them specifically.

The part about figuring out what works for you is definitely true. More long runs = more injury risk. However, if you can run 24 mile long runs and complete a strong LT workout just 3 days later, then go for it!

Popping back in for a brief Boston recap. Training leading up to the race was less than ideal for a variety of factors. The biggest was my fiancee and I bought a house that needed a ton of work. As such, I spent the last 6 weekends of my Boston marathon build doing home renovations rather than long runs. On top of that, we moved in the week leading up to the race.

I was trying to make both work, but the marathon training definitely suffered. My three longest long runs were only 20, 18 and 16.7 miles. That being said I had a couple really good workouts which left me hopeful I could manage a PR. I had what I'd consider my best workout ever, a 3x2 mile threshold in 12:43, 12:28, 12:31 10 days out from the race. Additionally, I PR'd in the 5k about two months out from the marathon. Going into the marathon I felt like I could easily PR at all distances up to the half, but knew I was way undertrained for the marathon distance.

I felt fresh and ready to go race day and the weather seemed perfect. Early in the week it looked like we'd get a slight tailwind, but by the weekend that turned into a headwind. All in all, nothing that can be complained about when previous years are taken into consideration.

The morning of the race I got dropped off downtown and took the bus to Hopkinton. After about an hour hanging out in a field we walked to the start line and were off. The first miles were in control, but I found myself trying to compare the effort to Indy (last marathon I ran, November 2021) and feeling as though I was working slightly harder despite the downhill. The energy on the course was awesome and the early miles passed quickly and uneventfully.

I managed sub 3 pace for about 16 miles, but at 16 my legs just didn't have it anymore. My pace dropped running up the first of the Newton hills, as expected. However, I figured I'd make it up by going faster on the down hill. At that point, I found I couldn't pick up the pace on the way down. This continued for pretty much the remainder of the race as my pace slowly dropped off. I averaged 7:24 after the 25k mark.

I finished the race in 3:05:31 which was disappointing, but for how undertrained I was, seems like a decent result. The hardest part about it is that I felt great aerobically and didn't overheat at any point during the race. I just didn't have the legs to keep the pace up.

I'm feeling fully recovered and plan to get at least one easy run in this weekend. For the next couple of weeks I'll keep the mileage low and do some speed work in preparation for the Loudoun Street Mile on Memorial Day. Then run a bunch of 5ks over the summer and train for CIM in the fall. I think I have a decent shot of running 2:50 at CIM with consistent training over the summer (especially if I actually add long runs into marathon training...).

Now that things are calmed down I'll be keeping up with the thread better and start posting weeklies again.

sc I'm going to suggest building. I believe you said you're aiming to peak at 60 miles, and a lot of it has to do with family obligations. If you WANT to do a 20 then go for it. I'd do as JMac says (cap at 2.5 hours long) and increase miles during the week, if possible, including warm ups and cool downs. I'm in the Hansons plan mentality where adding to the long run is the last place you add miles, and combined with the "long run equal to or less than 30% of weekly mileage" mantra it has worked for me. Mostly because I have better shit (#DadLife) to do with my time than go running these days.

 

I had the fresh foam Zantes as well. They felt so fast for training. Closest thing to a race shoe I'd worn at the time.

 

race the 5k if you want to. It could get you a new fitness goal. Lots of people here enjoy races especially during a training cycle. The barn isn't full of hay yet, and you could always TRY to get a run in similar to the course to see how it feels. It's kind of downhill, right?

Haha, I definitely don't WANT to do a 20 - logistics aside, I've run 20+ enough times that I don't need the mental boost of knowing I can do it or anything. I think 60 is a reasonable goal to hit... I had dreams of getting to 65+ (the most I've ever run in one week was 64 I think), but it doesn't seem likely.

Per your last paragraph, I am planning at least one run on the actual race course. I did the same thing last time - start at the bottom, run about 8 miles (mostly) uphill, and then run MP or slightly faster than MP on the way back down. I can't do it early in the cycle because the path will be covered in snow, but at this time of year I should be OK on the bottom part at least.

That's interesting Matt. I think what you are proposing is not really standard practice (similar to before, YMMV). Most coaches don't advise adding doubles until you get to 70+, at least for the marathon.

As distances go down, you should add doubles sooner. For example, in a marathon, running easy runs around 10 miles make a lot of sense. If you're training for a 5K, there is no reason to be running easy runs that long and you are better served with something like 6/4.

Oh I like that. And actually, it can all tie into a cohesive plan. If you want to learn how to run big mileage, first start with a 5K training plan at big mileage (which is 50+ for that distance). That will train you to run doubles. Then, move up in total distance and get to half and full. Honestly, that's how the pros do it: they all start at shorter distances and run doubles, and then move up. Us mere mortals just keep ramping up to the marathon when we want to get serious instead of getting serious at shorter/faster distances first.

I really like this discussion because it's something I'm going through right now: I want to hit 85 mpw, but some weeks I just can't do it without doubles. However, I've literally done 2 doubles in the last 2 years, and trying to add them in right now when I'm recovering from injuries seems like a recipe for more injuries. I'd rather just keep it at 80mpw. Those extra 4-6 miles for a couple of weeks will make 0 difference in my race. I can tackle doubles in the fall.

so I guess I'd still say for someone training at 50 MPW specifically for the marathon, I'd rather see you go up in your easy distance (or remove an off day). But if you want to experiment with doubles, perhaps starting it at that lower mileage before you start a big marathon cycle makes sense.

And remember: this is the thread of SAHB. You fit right in and thank you for contributing!

 

If possible, I'd HIGHLY ENCOURAGE AND EMPHASIZE running the 16 miles downhill. The logistics SUCK, so it's probably impossible unless your family REALLY loves you, or some stranger nearby would lend you a hand. Perhaps give you a ride to the top/start.

Hmm... yeah. I might be able to talk someone into this, but the main problem with this specific course is that the top is pretty likely to be snowed in for quite some time. Also I don't want to run through the tunnel by myself - it's too scary 

I will say that the downhill is not as severe as some other downhill courses, so I'm not worried about getting tons of steep downhill miles in to prepare myself. It's dramatic on the course map, but in practice it's very gentle. I remember asking a guy in a small pack I was running with in the first 5 miles last time "when does the downhill start?" and he was like, "this is it."

I’ve never been tempted to double… even when my highest marathon training cycle was 89mpw average over 16 weeks which was all singles.

Why?  Because it always takes me a couple of miles to get into the groove before I actually start enjoying the run, which is why I tend to do a lot of medium/long runs.  If you’re a competitive hobby jogger then you have to work out what’s best for you as there are so many different options.

Anyone into boxing?  My sporting hero The Gypsy King is fighting tomorrow night and it’s going to be an epic victory as always.👍