2022 Advanced Marathoning Thread (Read 301 times)

SteveChCh


Hot Weather Complainer

    It's not too different in style to Indian food, but the slightly different flavours are amazing.  When I was doing postgrad in Melbourne we found a Pakistani restaurant which we still visit whenever we can, makes my mouth water just thinking about it.  A workmate of mine in Melbourne from Pakistan went to the restaurant on my recommendation and said it was just standard home cooked Pakistani food.  I'd have to do a lot of running if I lived there.

    Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

    Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

    Race plan:  Wellington Half Marathon June 19, 2022 (likely marathon tempo session). Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022


    Speed Surplus

      Hey all - question about this weekend's planned long run.

       

      With any luck, I'll convince my wife to spend half of her mother's day up at the race course, hiking the trail with the kids while I run 18 miles. My plan is to do the first 8.5-9 miles uphill easy, and then come back down a bit faster. But what would be the most beneficial approach?

       

      1 - 9 miles back down as close to goal marathon pace as possible.

      2 - 5-6 miles at goal marathon pace, the rest easy.

      3 - 5-6 miles faster than marathon pace, the remainder easy.

      4 - 9 miles at marathon HR - targeting 155 - regardless of pace

      5 - 5-6 miles at marathon HR - targeting 155 - the rest easy.

      6 - backflips down the mountain the whole way.

      5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12

      darkwave


      Mother of Cats

        My vote is for either 4 or 5, depending on how fresh you feel.

        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

         

        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

        JMac11


        Milkman

          Theoretically these should all be similar if gmp is near actual mp (except 3). I would definitely go by marathon effort, which most likely will be faster than total gmp given its downhill and you haven't gotten the pounding of the true course

          5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

           

          Next Race: Grandma's Marathon (6/18)

          mmerkle


             

             Mikkey You're a tough coach.  I tried Keto and running for about 7-8 weeks averaging 40-50 miles with no speed and it worked but the running SUCKED.  I had no energy and heartburn every run.  It worked to loose weight but I promised myself never again.

             

            I think keto is just another stupid fad diet. Just another reason to give food a special  label and charge you an arm and a leg for it. I guess at least that way you lost weight lol. But joking set aside why on earth would a runner not eat carbs? That's our main fuel source. I think the population needs to learn not all carbs are created equal just like we had to learn that not all fat is created equal.

            Next Race: Hashawha 3 Mile XC Trail Run (6/9)

            Fishyone


               

              I think keto is just another stupid fad diet. Just another reason to give food a special  label and charge you an arm and a leg for it. I guess at least that way you lost weight lol. But joking set aside why on earth would a runner not eat carbs? That's our main fuel source. I think the population needs to learn not all carbs are created equal just like we had to learn that not all fat is created equal.

               

              Merk there comes an age where weight is very difficult to shed.  Zero carb (super low carb actually) is effective but very difficult to maintain.  There is quite a bit of research and discussion about the benefits of fat burning adaptations that occur when you run fasted or low carb.  I think it has a place with ultra runners and such but I agree for all distances up to the marathon carbs are key!!

               

              All I can say is enjoy the years where you can shed pounds only by running more miles.

              5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 


              Elite Jogger

                Hey all - question about this weekend's planned long run.

                 

                With any luck, I'll convince my wife to spend half of her mother's day up at the race course, hiking the trail with the kids while I run 18 miles. My plan is to do the first 8.5-9 miles uphill easy, and then come back down a bit faster. But what would be the most beneficial approach?

                 

                1 - 9 miles back down as close to goal marathon pace as possible.

                2 - 5-6 miles at goal marathon pace, the rest easy.

                3 - 5-6 miles faster than marathon pace, the remainder easy.

                4 - 9 miles at marathon HR - targeting 155 - regardless of pace

                5 - 5-6 miles at marathon HR - targeting 155 - the rest easy.

                6 - backflips down the mountain the whole way.

                 

                With those options I’d probably go with the 9 miles back down at marathon effort as imo any MP runs less than that distance are just pointless. Your marathon is downhill so you might as well make the most of it. Is the gradient similar to your race?

                5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)


                Speed Surplus

                    Is the gradient similar to your race?

                   

                  Yeah, the idea would be running on the actual course, back toward the start of the race from the finish (it's point-to-point) and then coming back down. So, 9 up, 9 down. There is a flat spot around mile 20-21, but other than that it's steadily a gentle downhill.

                   

                  I suppose what I'll go for on the downhill is marathon effort based on HR - will look to hold 155 or 156 at most. Don't know exactly how I'll feel after 9 miles of uphill running - I hate uphill running - but I expect that at least the first few miles of the downhill will be 6:30-6:40 at 155-156 HR. I hope so, anyway.


                  The weather is probably going to suck!

                  5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12

                  Running Problem


                  Problem Child

                    Hey all - question about this weekend's planned long run.

                     

                    With any luck, I'll convince my wife to spend half of her mother's day up at the race course, hiking the trail with the kids while I run 18 miles. My plan is to do the first 8.5-9 miles uphill easy, and then come back down a bit faster. But what would be the most beneficial approach?

                     

                    1 - 9 miles back down as close to goal marathon pace as possible.

                    2 - 5-6 miles at goal marathon pace, the rest easy.

                    3 - 5-6 miles faster than marathon pace, the remainder easy.

                    4 - 9 miles at marathon HR - targeting 155 - regardless of pace

                    5 - 5-6 miles at marathon HR - targeting 155 - the rest easy.

                    6 - backflips down the mountain the whole way.

                     

                    I'm all about option 1 if the weather permits. here is why:

                    1.)  No sense NOT running race pace on the course. You're going there to simulate race day pounding of the legs, right?

                    b.) Marathon heart rate for a massive downhill course could put you MUCH faster than your goal on a downhill race. Obviously depending on grade. Regardless of the distance.

                    iii.) I can't do backflips.

                     

                    I'd do the first miles uphill at something a little bit more than "easy" just to get the tired built into the legs. Again, I'm treating this as a race day simulation and a "final 9" type of run. The muscles getting beat going downhill won't get used much going uphill.

                     

                    IF POSSIBLE: See if the wife can record you running downhill. At Revel I saw a few people leaning backwards while running downhill so it might help to see how you're running relative to the course.You might feel like you're running parallel to the road but it's like some 90s off road magazines where they change the camera angle so bad you notice trees growing at a 45 degree angle. Fun fact: trees don't typically grow at 45 degree angles. Lean INTO the mountain. SeattleMax mentioned this to me at one point. It actually feels like you're about to fall flat on your face during the run until you get comfortable doing it.

                     

                    Also, it's REALLY easy to go too fast on a downhill for 9 miles. Watch that pace like a hawk.

                    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                    VDOT 54.9

                    5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07


                    Elite Jogger

                       

                      Yeah, the idea would be running on the actual course, back toward the start of the race from the finish (it's point-to-point) and then coming back down. So, 9 up, 9 down. There is a flat spot around mile 20-21, but other than that it's steadily a gentle downhill.

                       

                      I suppose what I'll go for on the downhill is marathon effort based on HR - will look to hold 155 or 156 at most. Don't know exactly how I'll feel after 9 miles of uphill running - I hate uphill running - but I expect that at least the first few miles of the downhill will be 6:30-6:40 at 155-156 HR. I hope so, anyway.


                      The weather is probably going to suck!

                      Run the uphill 9 miles as a progression effort starting out at very easy and building up with 9th mile at moderately hard…and then MP effort last 9 miles.

                      5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                      mmerkle


                         

                        Merk there comes an age where weight is very difficult to shed.  Zero carb (super low carb actually) is effective but very difficult to maintain.  There is quite a bit of research and discussion about the benefits of fat burning adaptations that occur when you run fasted or low carb.  I think it has a place with ultra runners and such but I agree for all distances up to the marathon carbs are key!!

                         

                        All I can say is enjoy the years where you can shed pounds only by running more miles.

                         

                        Haha noted. Maybe I'll look into that approach when I try an ultra.

                        Next Race: Hashawha 3 Mile XC Trail Run (6/9)

                        jhudak55


                          First week back after Boston. The next couple of weeks will include shorter speed workouts as I prep for the Loudoun Street Mile.

                           

                          38.6 miles

                          M: off

                          T: 4 miles @ 7:36

                          W: 6.1 miles @ 8:31

                          T: 7.7 mile fartlek, 3 x 30, 60, 90 seconds on/off

                          F: 4.1 miles @ 7:57

                          S: 9.7 miles with 3x4x200 (35, 38, 38, 37; 35, 38, 36, 37; 37, 37, 38, 37)

                          S: 7 miles @ 8:15

                           

                          The fartlek was run hard for the ons and recovery for the offs. Ons were in the range of 5:30 to 5:45 pace which is really surprising. I've never done workouts faster than 5k/VO2 max pace, so its taking some getting used to. On Saturday, I ran 12, 200s with 3 minutes walking recovery after each set of 4. I had no idea what to expect, but was trying to run 37s or 38s. This was mostly a success less a few reps run too fast when I was fresh. Track was locked, so 200s were measured by GPS.


                          Speed Surplus

                            Thanks for the input on the workout portion of my long run, here's how it went...

                             

                            Weather was pretty bad at the start. Low 40s and raining. I zipped up my running jacket that's roughly 5% waterproof at this point, pulled the hood over my head and started slogging uphill.

                             

                            9 miles, 866 feet egain, 8:40 pace at 137 AHR. For comparison, here's a similar run (same route, but shorter) in 2018:

                            8 miles, 690 feet egain, 8:52 pace at 139 AHR.

                             

                            When I got to the "top," I took a moment to pee, get out another gel and stretch a tiny bit. By this point it had stopped raining hard and was just drizzling occasionally, so I had my jacket tied around my waist. There were some people on the trail so I had to wait a moment before peeing, so when I started up again it took a moment to get the legs moving and get my HR up to a marathon effort. I decided to try to get up to what I estimate to be a reasonable marathon effort HR (155) and just hold it the entire time down.

                            It was quite a gear shift to go from slogging uphill to flying down, but boy, does it make a difference.

                             

                            9 miles, 6:45 pace at 153 AHR. For comparison, again, the way back down from 2018:

                            7 miles, 6:57 pace at 155 AHR. (it was shorter than the way up because I had taken a wrong turn on the way up and added roughly an extra mile)

                             

                            So, I was faster at a lower HR in both efforts this time around. Which I expected, because I generally feel fitter than during that buildup. However, my legs felt kind of rough the entire time. It could be cumulative fatigue, or the fact that this has been the biggest week of this cycle, but it didn't build as much confidence as I hoped it might.

                             

                            The course was also sloppy and wet - it's basically a wide gravel trail that usually has two ruts on either side. The ruts are where you want to be for tangent purposes around turns and also because the gravel is more compact there, but when it's wet, it's like a never-ending puddle. So you have to decide between slogging through the puddle and getting (more) wet, or running in the middle where the terrain is a bit more wonky at times. It's not like it's LOOSE gravel, but it's just not quite as solid as the edges. I'll need to think about my approach for race day if the weather is like it was yesterday...

                             

                             

                            Weekly for period: From: 05/02/2022 To 05/08/2022

                            Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                            in ft
                            05/03 Stayed up too late last night 7.07 11.37 00:56:34 08:00 04:59 295
                            05/04 Trying to keep the effort easy but I also like running fast 🤔 Hope this is still in the reasonable range 8.01 12.89 01:03:01 07:52 04:53 220
                            05/05 Drizzle loops 7.52 12.10 00:58:52 07:50 04:52 272
                            05/06 Rainy 15k with no watch peeking. Pleased with steady mostly easy effort. 9.44 15.19 01:13:28 07:47 04:50 276
                            05/07 Easy shakeout. Long run plus some mp effort work tomorrow 6.01 9.68 00:47:36 07:55 04:55 213
                            05/08 Nine the hard way 9.01 14.50 01:18:07 08:40 05:23 866
                            05/08 Nine the easy way, but hard 9.07 14.60 01:01:17 06:45 04:12 0

                            Total distance: 56.13mi

                            5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12

                            weatherboy80


                              Still sounds like a nice marathon paced long run effort despite what sounds like cumulative fatigue in the legs.  The HR and effort level sounded great though. Well done!

                               

                              Even though I don't have any long distance events coming up I'll try to stick around and post from time to time assuming I'm able to continue the progress I've seen recently.  Speaking of which I was able to run a 5K in 17:22 on Saturday (in very warm and humid conditions) so it looks like despite the occasional setbacks the fitness is trending in the right direction!  In fact, the race was delayed over an hour for lightning and heavy rain so my warm up was cut short and by starting so late the sun was baking all that moisture back off the ground.  Still well removed from my times last spring, but this and certainly the 55 minute 15k last month (in much better weather) were encouraging given I thought any type of running might be out the window for the foreseeable future.

                               

                              With the coming Florida heat there won't be much racing to be had for the few next months and this is usually when I drop most of my workouts anyways so thinking it will be a nice time to back off on structured workouts and eventually build back some volume (after a few down weeks) for something bigger come the fall.

                              1mile: 4:46 (12/20) | 5K: 15:57 (3/21)  |  10K: 33:40 (4/20)  |  15K 51:43 (4/21) | HM: 1:15:03 (12/20)  |  FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)


                              Elite Jogger


                                It was quite a gear shift to go from slogging uphill to flying down, but boy, does it make a difference.

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                Yep!  Pretty much all my races have either been flat or rolling hill courses with minimum net downhill. But running the Hastings half in March was proof to me how big an advantage a downhill course is…I was a bit wiped at the halfway stage getting to the highest elevation, but managed to recover and the last 3 miles downhill was my fastest and bliss…but that’s not how you’re meant to feel during the last 5k of a half!

                                 

                                Anyway, that looked like a very positive workout based on your HR and effort….the only thing I’d suggest is a bit more strength training in the gym to make sure your quads can last 26.2 miles and take advantage of the course. 👍

                                5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)