Forums >Racing>2022 Advanced Racing Thread
Speed Surplus
"A 3:20 off of a 1:28 is the ultimate violation of Rule #7"
Counterpoint - 3:22 was the best I could do off of a 1:28 half! I'm definitely not a "very good" marathoner though 😂
5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12
Hot Weather Complainer
I definitely want to put in an honest effort and if training goes really well I might adjust. I’m hoping my approach leads to a darkwave type debut which I think was 1:36 first half, 1:32 second half. So I’ll likely stick to my conservative goal for a long part of the race and then see what’s left. There’s a long way to go though.
Given I’ve already done 1.5 marathon training cycles, there’s an argument that I’m not as inexperienced as the standard first marathoner.
5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23
2024 Races:
Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55
Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024
Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024
Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024
RIP Milkman
"A 3:20 off of a 1:28 is the ultimate violation of Rule #7" Counterpoint - 3:22 was the best I could do off of a 1:28 half! I'm definitely not a "very good" marathoner though 😂
Right, I'm not saying you can't run it. I'm asking what is a good goal. So put another way - were you happy with that 3:22 off your 1:28? I set a goal of 3:10 for my marathon off the 1:28 and ran a 3:12. I thought it was the perfect goal as I just faded in the last 6 miles, but no crash and burn. I was happy with my time even though I missed the A goal.
This could be a discussion about A goals, but I think they should be achievable, but not necessarily "I'm going to hit this time barring a complete blow up"
Steve - yeah if you care more about negative splitting and not suffering in the last 6 miles, then that approach works. But as you know from other PRs, suffering at the end of the race is required in order to run your true best
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
If I can finish without considering suicide that will be good…I don’t know how to not empty the tank in a race so I think I’ll be able to, albeit without the reference point of previous races.
Missed the rest of your post. Yep, I think I need to look at A, B and C goals. I think I’m slightly better than having the goal of just finishing.
Do you have a tune-up half scheduled 3-6 weeks prior to the full? That'll give us the best insight here.
Not at this stage. There’s one in early August I could look at, but I’ll talk to my coach about it. The one in June will just be a training run
Mmmm Bop
I had to Google lollygag and think I like that word.
Keen - In all seriousness, you’re capable of sub 2:55 and hope it all comes together at CIM. 👍
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
Steve - You’ve probably read too many debut marathon horror stories! But the big advantage you have is that you’re an experienced and knowledgable runner even though you haven’t run the marathon distance yet. I totally get what Milkman is saying…and the perfect scenario would be an even split and you give it EVERYTHING in the last 10k. Of course that’s easier said than done.
Edit - Let’s not forget that Piwi went sub3 in his first marathon.
So put another way - were you happy with that 3:22 off your 1:28?
I was OK with it. Not thrilled, but OK. I decided on a goal of 3:15 before the race because I didn't think I had a shot of going any faster, but I wasn't that excited about the goal because it wasn't a BQ at the time. Partway through the race I started to lose motivation... I was like...who cares about 3:15? Why am I doing this? Almost considered dropping out at mile 16 or so when I had a sort of strange energy dip.
But I stuck with it and did the 3:22 which was still a big PR. It was also the first marathon where I didn't walk or fade INSANELY hard, so it was a good learning experience.
I do think it helps to have some kind of motivational goal to shoot for. Maybe if I had targeted 3:20 I could have pushed harder for a 3:19? Who knows.
who cares about 3:15? Why am I doing this? Almost considered dropping out at mile 16 or so when I had a sort of strange energy dip.
We'll have to talk to Steve about that dreaded feeling in the marathon you just described here. The amount of talking to yourself that is done in the marathon is crazy to convince yourself to keep going. "Why do I do this to myself" "it's okay to just walk for a bit" are two little demons I am constantly battling! I think the last 2 miles, although insanely painful, are actually relatively easily mentally because you can imagine finishing soon. When things are getting tough at mile 18, it's very hard to keep pushing. There's no frame of reference. Telling myself "just a length of an easy run left" doesn't do it for me, whereas "just one more 2 mile repeat, you've done SO many of these this cycle" does!
Speaking of which, I went back and re-read my CIM race report from 2019 and I plan to do so again right before the race so that I remember the dark patches I went through. Not having run a marathon in 2.5 years, I'm going to need to learn through reading instead of recent experience.
If you have a look at my Southern Lakes race report over on your favourite thread, you'll see even in a half that is going well I have non-stop arguments with myself...
JMac - I think your experience of a 3:12 off a 1:29 is definitely relevant but possibly needs to be viewed in the context that you're now a 2:36 marathoner. I don't have that sort of potential improvement in me.
If I can finish without considering suicide that will be good…I don’t know how to not empty the tank in a race so I think I’ll be able to, albeit without the reference point of previous races. Missed the rest of your post. Yep, I think I need to look at A, B and C goals. I think I’m slightly better than having the goal of just finishing.
Honestly, I don't rate the idea of having three separate goals. Have one goal, and modify it if you need based on conditions. Having multiple goals is a distraction and can create the mental trap of not going as hard for the A goal because at least there's the B and C goals. But that one goal shouldn't be a certainty either. It needs to be like any good goal - challenging but achievable. When I was gunning for that sub-70 at Southern Lakes last year, I knew that was probably on the edge of what I could run. FWIW I think the Rogue Running guys nailed this approach.
It doesn't necessarily need to be a time goal either. Setting a time goal for my first marathon in hindsight was a terrible idea. It should have just been to finish the race strongly. But you have a lot more running under your belt than I did when I ran that first marathon.
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48
Up next: Runway5, 4 May
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
Mark - Also fair points. I guess there's plenty of time to work out what I should be targeting - for now, I'll train for sub 3:20 but as my fitness builds I might find those paces a bit easy. Maybe that time can be a benchmark and, like Southern Lakes, if I'm going well I can forget time goals and just blaze into the unknown. Sub 3:20 is also a Chicago qualifier which I'm still considering entering in 2023.
I think a reasonable goal for now is to finish strong but as close to the edge as possible which is probably how anyone wants to run a marathon but will be harder to execute on debut.
March 18th 2012 - HM at 1:33. May 6th 2012 - marathon number 3 at 3:12 (not downhill - loop course with few hills). Weekly mileage for 3 months before FM - 45-60 mpw. It was time before I got obsessed with mileage I think, if you raced FM at HM x 2 + 10+ minutes, you didn't run enough mileage.
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
Intl. correspondent
A 3h20 is very reasonable for Steve.
Just for the record he did run the marathon distance as a training run before and he didn't hit the wall.
Being able to long run a marathon is a great ability that a lot of you have and take for granted.
I think if he trains for a 3h20 he will keep himself in check.
Steve has often burned up in races for going out too hard and that is a dangerous proposition in the marathon.
It's better he goes out first half in 1h39, then comes back the other way in like 1h35 for a 3h14. That will be very satisfying.
Then build on top of that, he's a young man, he can live to run a faster race at another date.
If it turns out he's a marathon freak like Calbears mikkey and jmac, then over time his times will go down.
That is much better than going balls to the wall into the uncertain then waste 6 months of training recovering when You fail 😁
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
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