2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 467 times)

weatherboy80


    Darkwave: great week of training!

     

    Ian: welcome back!

     

    JMac: super LR yesterday!  I'm not sure you've consistently had volume this high or not so hoping that pays off for you!

     

    Me: after a pretty solid couple of weeks in the health department felt like I regressed quite a bit this week.  All of the aforementioned symptoms that I talked about came back starting about Thursday so not really sure what triggered them. My guess is it was the fairly dramatic warm up outside and a week in a row of outside running so I'm likely experiencing a bit of post exertional fatigue from whatever is going on in my body.  In fact I could tell as I raced a 5K yesterday and ended up running about 30 seconds slower than my good effort last week.  The HR was also telling as it was pegged in the 180s for just about the entire race while last week it was in the 170s in fairly smile weather.  Still a decent effort compared to what I could do 3-4 months so no complaints.  It's just frustrating that every time I think I'm on the other side of this I have these intermittent setbacks.  No one ever said the mountain would be straight up though.  I'm traveling for work this week so figure it will be a good time to step back from any real quality to let my body perhaps adjust.   I'm just wondering how much I can push the volume back towards my usual self over the summe 🤔  Plus is it better to really work on rebuilding the aerobic base versus doing short speed sessions given my heat and humidity?

    1mile: 4:46 (12/20) | 5K: 15:57 (3/21)  |  10K: 33:40 (4/20)  |  15K 51:43 (4/21) | HM: 1:15:03 (12/20)  |  FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)

    Marky_Mark_17


       

      Yeah - it was a real lesson to me - never give up, no matter how your race is going, because you just never know.

       

       

      This.

       

      I've had several occasions where things didn't quite go to plan early in the race but I stuck at it and somehow achieved my goal anyway.  When I ran that sub-70 HM, I had an aspiration (not a goal) of running sub-70 on that course and thought by about the 16-17km mark I was going to just miss it, absolutely gassed the last mile and got there in the end.

       

      In some ways those races are actually more rewarding than the days where everything goes well from the start, there's something very satisfying about having to deal with some adversity and still coming out on top.

      3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

      10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

      * Net downhill course

      Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

      Up next: Speights West Coaster, 10 Dec

      "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

      JMac11


      RIP Milkman

         

        Dude, the half I pace a week ago was short.  SOME runners kept going for their PR to measure a full 13.1.  Others obviously stopped and claimed a 12.89 mile half marathon PR.

         

        Are you surprised at all that people claimed that as a PR? More about kudos and feeling good about your race than anything.

         

        Fishy - that's too bad on the race. It has been humid though in the northeast, that may have been a tough one.

         

        Ian - happy to hear you plan on sticking around!

         

        DW - you are totally different with goals so it's hard to compare. My counterpoint to your story though is the hundreds if not thousands of women who probably ran 2:47s who know they weren't going to get there by mile 18-20 who would have been better served DNFing and going for it again another day, whereas gutting it out drained the well.

         

        Weather - thank you for the kind words and yes, I've never done this kind of volume for this long (I took one off week due to a bad knee but otherwise have been cranking out 75-85 a week). Regarding what's best for you, I think it's a matter of figuring out what's driving why you feel: is it high heart rate work, or long runs? I pointed this out when you came back, and you alluded to it, but no comeback doesn't have these hiccups. All of my injuries look like what you described: mostly up, but some down days that make you think it's all coming back. It almost never does. Measure your progress in how things are at the end of every 3-4 week cycle, not by the days, and you'll be much better served. I will say I've seen a few things on people coming back from COVID and how they dealt with it, I could try to dig some up (although I'm sure you've seen everything I have!)

         

         

        Here's my week. Very good VO2 max early in the week, not so great MP run this weekend. I thought I was in about 5:57 shape but it was a complete struggle bus the entire run. It just got humid here in the northeast for the first time all year, so I think (hope?) that is what drove it as I was completely soaked and overcooked at the end of the run. I almost bailed after 8 @ MP because I was working so hard but throwing up 6:07s. However, directly relevant to our goal discussion, I said "I'm going to push hard here and see what comes up" and I did put up a 5:55, so I had no excuse to stop.

         

        Either way, I've always nailed the 14@MP for my previous cycles so this was a bit concerning, but I'll take zero responsibility and blame the humidity and cumulative fatigue like any good runner would. It doesn't look so bad because I average 6:00 for the whole thing, but usually I finish these MP runs feeling like I could do another 2 miles at that pace. I had nothing left in the tank at the end of this run and I ran a positive split throughout the workout.

         

        Speaking of the weather, my half this weekend coming up has had a horrific forecast. At one point yesterday, the forecasted high was 89 degrees! The average this time of year is low 70s, so about 15 degrees over. Of course the race wouldn't be at mid-day, but it shows how bad the forecast is looking. Race time temps have been bouncing around from low 70s, to now saying upper 60s. Either way, it's going to be C or D weather. My only hope is the forecast is completely wrong and they revise it with a few days to go, but either way, the dew point in the low 60s at race time has not changed, so I'll be racing at best in the conditions my 14@MP were in. I'm going to try to get my workout in tomorrow mid-day to at least give me some more heat acclimation.

         

        I'll set a goal when I know what the final forecast is. A weather goal was definitely going to be a PR as my latest workouts indicate low 1:15s, so 1:14:XX was possible with the right conditions. Knowing me I'll be an idiot and still go for a PR and then blow up in the last 4 miles.

         

         

        Weekly for period: From: 05/09/2022 To 05/15/2022

        Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
        in ft
        05/09 Evening Run 10.42 16.77 01:17:51 07:28 04:39 410
        05/10 8E + 6x1200 (3:16 per K) + 2E 16.12 25.93 01:55:29 07:10 04:27 282
        05/11 Evening Run 6.55 10.55 00:55:33 08:29 05:16 203
        05/12 Morning Run 10.10 16.26 01:19:30 07:52 04:53 148
        05/13 Night Run 2.19 3.53 00:18:55 08:38 05:22 0
        05/13 1E + 14M (6:00) + 2E 17.01 27.37 01:57:37 06:55 04:18 587
        05/14 Afternoon Run 6.59 10.61 00:57:48 08:46 05:27 210
        05/15 Morning Run 10.37 16.69 01:19:10 07:38 04:45 417

        Total distance: 79.36mi

        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

         

         

        JMac11


        RIP Milkman

          If there was ever a participation award for running that is well deserved, it goes to calbears for his ultra this weekend. Sounds like he really went into the well in order to get that Western States qualifier. It's one thing when you have 6 miles left to go in a marathon. It's a completely different beast when you have 20 miles to go with hundreds of feet of elevation gain in some of those miles.

           

          Well done!

          5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

           

           


          Speed Surplus

            DW - Nice weeks of training - I hope the hormonal changeup going on with contraception results in a net positive. In my limited conversations on this topic with female friends, IUD seems to = 👍

             

            Jmac - Damn, that weather sounds brutal - both for the training run and the upcoming half. I'm probably spoiled here in the PNW - it's still in the 50s right now. Although it did rain probably 3" during my LR yesterday.

             

            Ian - Welcome! Excellent shorter PRs that haven't quite led to a sub-3 yet...I feel you. Although yours are better than mine (unless you count HS prs 😏)

             

            Goals - I often have an important A goal, and then at least a B goal. But it's more about setting post-race expectations than ensuring consistent effort. I haven't had a problem with "mailing it in," so to speak. A badly executed race plan? For sure, many times. And if I'm injured I'll just drop out*.

             

            *- One exception to this was a half marathon several months after I set my PR of 1:28:12. I thought I was in shape for a small PR and went out accordingly. At some point my left calf was hurting a bit more than seemed normal, but not enough to drop out. I ended up fading to a 1:28:22. Afterward, my calf was definitely injured - if I had known that was going to happen, I would have dropped rather than continue pushing. But with all the race adrenaline and being CLOSE to a PR, I couldn't quite make the call that it was bad enough to stop.

             

            My week: Had an URD on Thursday where things just kept going sideways, schedule-wise. Planned on running in the evening, but I got home after a long, busy day and essentially took a 10 minute nap. When I got up, I was so stiff and sore that I thought running would be a bad idea. So, with only 5 running days, I called it a cutback week but at least tried to get the mileage up to "respectable."

            Weekly for period: From: 05/09/2022 To 05/15/2022

            Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
            in ft
            05/10 Ran with someone else for the first time in literally years 6.01 9.67 00:48:35 08:05 05:01 203
            05/11 Quads barking at me a little bit. Giving them a hearty foam roll now 7.01 11.27 00:54:09 07:43 04:48 262
            05/13 Making up for the URD. Kinda. 10.10 16.24 01:19:10 07:50 04:52 344
            05/14 Dressed too warm and maybe ran too fast? 8.10 13.03 01:01:25 07:35 04:43 404
            05/15 Absolutely drenched. Good test of anti chafe measures - they held up well 16.62 26.74 02:14:05 08:04 05:01 400

            Total distance: 47.83mi

            5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12

            zebano


              Hey I don't wanna derail the current discussion, just wondering real quick if anyone has any advice for running while traveling. I'm going to Canada next week and it's been a while since I had to worry about running while being away for a week. What I'm really asking is, what should I do with my dirty clothes lol? I'm not sure if I'll be able to wash them or not.

               

              Wear em into the shower post-run, hang em up and they'll be ready for tomorrows run or at the very least stink a little less for when you pack your bags.

               

              JMac - You really should run CIM / Indy / Houston / Grandma's etc. because you're totally capable of a 2:30 IMO (and it should be your C goal). 

               

              Weather really sorry to hear about your long covid struggles.

               

              SC how soon do you race? It looks like you're ready to rip.

               

              been a few weeks since I posted. I fought influenza which led to a couple low weeks then I've gone 54 / 40 / 56 miles. My Triathlons are coming up soon then I'll recover then kick into full on marathon training.

               

              The highlights from the week

               

              Tuesday: got destroyed by the heat and cancelled my 4xmi workout and went 1600, 1200, 800, 800, 400, 200, 200 running 6:55 -> 6:30 pace on the long stuff, 90 sec on the 400 and 36 on the 200s. All with long enough recoveries to empty half of a water bottle over myself.

               

              Friday the weather finally went from 80s and humid to low 70s and I felt amazing.

               

              Sunday: 2up + 12 moderate + 2down. split the 12 into 4 mile chunks to try and avoid looking at the watch averaged 8:01, 7:52, 7:36 pace on them. The third quartet was hard enough I'm questioning my 3:10 marathon goal but I still have lots of time. The first 8 miles were just cruising under control and I certainly didn't have to go to the well to finish so I'm calling it a successful workout.

               

               

              edit: Congrats to CalBears on the WS qualifier and best of luck with that absurd lottery.

              1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)


              Speed Surplus

                Oh, one addendum!

                 

                The all-comers track series around here is starting early... I was considering racing another 5k on 5/24 to try to eke out another PR. Is that enough distance from my race? It's about 19 days ahead of the marathon.

                5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12

                CommanderKeen


                Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                   

                  I agree. If you see you cannot hit your A goal, the next thing you should do is the best you can do at the time, otherwise why in the World did you start that race for? I do not understand those C, D, E, ... and X, Y goals - way too unnecessary.

                   

                  Lucky you!! During the span of miles 13-19 in the Dallas marathon 2019 I went from having just an "A" goal to B, C, D, & E as a stomach bug I didn't know I had kicked in mid-race.

                   

                   

                  Merkle - I'd take minimal running clothes and wash/rinse them in the shower after your runs and just hang dry them. If you can't do that after the final run put them in a bag (even an ice or trash bag from the hotel). This worked well a couple weeks ago when I was a few states away for work.


                  Fishy - Sorry to hear about the family emergency, hopefully that ended and did so well.
                  There are several of us who will be at CIM.


                  Weather - I hate hearing about the setback, hopefully those complaints clear up as you build and get more accustomed to the conditions.


                  JMac - Tough conditions for that VO2 workout, and 14M just sounds miserable this time of year.


                  Cal - Wow, way to stick with it to get that finish for 500k.


                  Clever - 19 days is way more than enough to recover completely from a 5k ahead of a marathon, on that front I say go for it!

                   

                   


                  I finally got a pretty decent week under my belt again, though a stupid mistake did lead to me ditching the most valuable 10 minutes of my workout on Friday.
                  The heat acclimation metric on my watch is proving quite interesting. Outside of that number, though, being used to the heat/humidity really helped with my workout this morning with the temps being ~12F cooler than morning have typically been lately.

                   

                   

                  I finally got a pretty decent week under my belt again, though a stupid mistake did lead to me ditching the most valuable 10 minutes of my workout on Friday.
                  The heat acclimation metric on my watch is proving quite interesting. Outside of that number, though, being used to the heat/humidity really helped with my workout this morning with the temps being ~12F cooler than morning have typically been lately.

                   

                  Weekly for period: From: 05/09/2022 To 05/15/2022

                  Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                  in ft
                  05/09 6x 2' HMe, 1' 5ke 12.20 19.63 01:36:40 07:55 04:55 394
                  05/09 2 nope ropes & 1 scissor-tailed flycatcher 4.05 6.52 00:35:04 08:40 05:23 226
                  05/10 2 deer (2 strides) 8.00 12.88 01:10:28 08:49 05:28 3412
                  05/11 5 deer (5 strides), 1 ornate box turtle, & 1 scissor-tailed flycatcher 13.45 21.65 01:50:29 08:13 05:06 2782
                  05/11 1 hawk & 1 scissor-tailed flycatcher 4.05 6.52 00:34:37 08:33 05:19 207
                  05/12 1 rabbit & 1 heron 8.01 12.88 01:09:42 08:42 05:25 315
                  05/13 20' HMe + 10' at not quite HMe 12.10 19.47 01:32:56 07:41 04:46 328
                  05/13 1 scissor-tailed flycatcher, 1 hawk, & 1 mulberry on the go 4.75 7.65 00:39:15 08:16 05:08 131
                  05/14 8 rabbits, 2 deer (2 strides), & 1 box turtle 15.01 24.15 02:09:38 08:38 05:22 696
                  05/15 1 scissor-tailed flycatcher 4.05 6.52 00:34:59 08:38 05:22 207

                  Total distance: 85.68mi

                  5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                   

                  Upcoming Races:

                   

                  CIM - 12/4

                  Ian5


                    Clever-Absolutely 19 days is enough,I'd be happy racing it a week before as a sharpener.

                    Started my exercise regime today,only 15 mins a day 3 times a week to start then build up.

                    5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

                    Fishyone


                      Thanks all for the well wishes. I've given myself a little consolation in that J-mac was probably right... it would have been hot and humid!

                       

                      I dusted off the HR monitor that I got with my watch. Never used one before but have committed to use it for a while to get some baseline data.  My questions are:

                       

                      I know it varies person to person but for a 52 Y/O male can someone give approximate easy, MP, half and Tempo HR zones?

                       

                      My first run wearing it I was 115-120 for the warm-up easy.  3 miles at MP effort @ 140.

                       

                      My second time wearing it was this morning 7.5 miles easy and it was avg 115.

                       

                      What is a good test for my max HR.  A 5K race?  A mile on the track?

                       

                      Thanks- fishy

                      5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                      zebano


                         

                        What is a good test for my max HR.  A 5K race?  A mile on the track?

                         

                        Thanks- fishy

                         

                        Wear it through an evening with the Mrs?

                         

                        A 5k or mile race race will be close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades but if you really want to I like the test Polar gives though I did something similar with a 45 second hill.

                         

                        https://www.polar.com/blog/calculate-maximum-heart-rate-running/

                        1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                        Mikkey


                        Mmmm Bop

                          Oh, one addendum!

                           

                          The all-comers track series around here is starting early... I was considering racing another 5k on 5/24 to try to eke out another PR. Is that enough distance from my race? It's about 19 days ahead of the marathon.

                           

                          I ran my 5k PR 15 days before my marathon PR…so I’m saying go for it. 👍

                           

                          Cal - Wow you are totally crazy! I wouldn’t be able to cope mentally or physically. 

                          Fishy - I never look at HR during a run and I’ve always seen it as an added bit of data to look at after a run.  I’ve never done a Max HR test, but nearly all my marathons have been around 160bpm and easy runs can be anything between 130-145bpm.

                          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                          Marky_Mark_17


                             

                             

                            I know it varies person to person but for a 52 Y/O male can someone give approximate easy, MP, half and Tempo HR zones?

                             

                            My first run wearing it I was 115-120 for the warm-up easy.  3 miles at MP effort @ 140.

                             

                            My second time wearing it was this morning 7.5 miles easy and it was avg 115.

                             

                            What is a good test for my max HR.  A 5K race?  A mile on the track?

                             

                            Thanks- fishy

                             

                            Main thing is to get an estimate of your max HR as everything else builds off that.  It sounds like you've pretty much established that your easy HR is 115ish.  For max HR I've always gone for the 5k race/all out, then really gas it over the last 1km and then add 1-2bpm to cover for the fact that you're fatigued by that point.  But that one Mikkey posted may work well too.

                            3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                            10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                            * Net downhill course

                            Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

                            Up next: Speights West Coaster, 10 Dec

                            "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                            JMac11


                            RIP Milkman

                               

                              JMac - You really should run CIM / Indy / Houston / Grandma's etc. because you're totally capable of a 2:30 IMO (and it should be your C goal). 

                               

                               

                               

                              That's where my 2:36 is from, how else do you think I got it besides cheating? Also I don't know if you saw a few pages back, but I thanked you for this idea of the PM/AM commute on back to back days. What a lifesaver! Really enjoyed it the first 2 times I've done it and I plan on keeping it up through my marathon. Thanks again!

                               

                              Fishy - I've got nothing as I think I'm the only person left here who never uses a HR monitor. It's like Darkwave and her refusing to look at her watch during a race. We all have our thing.

                               

                              Keen - you should sneak into a 5K/10K one of these weekends if the weather drops! No races until October is blech. Also, given your love of birds, have you played Wingspan? We bought it during March of 2020 and then didn't open it until about 6 months ago, but now we are addicted. We've got it going in the digital space as well with some friends.

                               

                              SC - I had the same dilemma on a 5K and opted not to this spring, but I'm a bit crazy with my tapers and don't like racing during them. Almost everyone has said even a 10K 14 days out will have no impact. Go for it!

                               

                               

                              Anddd we're back to a high of 88 degrees on Saturday. This has been a fun one to track in the forecast! Don't you love when the day you're racing is one of the only D/F weather days on the grid? I guess Sunday morning with a low of 72 would have been even worse!

                               

                              As usual though, I will trade this terrible half weather for a nice, cloudy, 53 degree day in Duluth in 4.5 weeks 

                               

                              Forecast

                              5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                               

                               

                              Fishyone


                                 

                                Wear it through an evening with the Mrs?

                                 

                                A 5k or mile race race will be close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades but if you really want to I like the test Polar gives though I did something similar with a 45 second hill.

                                 

                                https://www.polar.com/blog/calculate-maximum-heart-rate-running/

                                 

                                LOL!!

                                 

                                thanks for the link.  I like the site and info.  I think I'll find a 5 K and give it a go.  I don't think I'll ever watch it during a race/workout but it will be interesting data to look at this summer.

                                5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015)