2022 Advanced Marathoning Thread (Read 135 times)

Running Problem


Problem Child

    JMac I've been using Google Earth and Garmin Connect to map out courses. So far they're working out OKAY and there is a learning curve associated with it. Some of the problems are with "Popularity Mapping" where Garmin says "the road ends here" and litearlly 20 feet away is the road you want to go down, so it takes you a stupid long way to get there. Other times I use "follow roads" which works well, except when it wants to give you driving directions so it will take the shortest path which is really only annoying when I want to make some of the loops through neighborhoods and not make 2-3 data points. There is also "freehand" which I use to override some roads Garmin doesn't know. Probably not a problem in Atlantic City. You could also go old school and run one direction for an hour and turn around to run the opposite direction.

    Also, watch the COVID 19 talk. Wouldn't want the thread dictator making you quarantine from this place for 5-10 business days not including weekends or holidays.

     

    dark running perhaps it is different in the "rural" areas of America, but in my experience there are less cars, dogs, people, and cyclists on the road during dark. We live in places where people sleep between 10pm and 5am. For me there is just something relaxing about a morning run when it's dark. Almost as if I'm more focused on "just running" instead of finishing at a specific time. It DID feel pretty cool to get home last weekend before anyone woke up and I was home at 6:30am which is typically an hour AFTER kids have made my wife roll out of bed. I guess morning darkness and evening darkness might be different.

     

    Fishy I don't know a way to make a treadmill bearable anymore. Previously my solution was "watch NASCAR."

     

    Keen Perhaps you and JMac could send them an email saying "hey this is a marathon course and roads are only closed for one day." It reminds me of this. MArysille Road isn't always open, and Google Maps told people "We make these directions based on the theory the roads will be open. We don't actually drive all of them. The other option is we don't have maps for you to look at." I think the second option would be good.

     

    Mapping I'm finding out all kinds of mapping joys with "Run Every Street" adventures. Garmin, Google and my eyeballs don't always agree on roads. I'm taking the "would I send someone this direction in a car, but also would I want someone running down my driveway just because Google says it is actually a road" approach.

     

    JT bummer on the calf. "only 50 miles" just sounds so weird still because I said the same thing while also saying "I got 50 miles? HOW?" the other week.

    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

    VDOT 54.9

    5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

    Fishyone


      JMac- Can you add me to the spreadsheet?  Next Marathon Boston with a goal of under 3:15.  I'm basing that on Philly 3:20 in November with nice weather and pretty even splits.  I hope to get more aggressive as the cycle progresses but would be very interested in other's opinions. I'm trying 2 new things this cycle.  One is making my long runs have significant quality vs. just time on my feet. The other if racing More during training.  I ran a half on 1/1 have a 16 miler 1/30, a 20 miler in mid feb and at least one maybe 2 halfs in March.  Below are weeks 16 and 15.

      Week 16          
                 
      Date Name Miles Duration Avg/Mile Notes
      12/27 11 With 7T 11.1 1:24:03 7:34 7 @ 7 min pace
      12/28 Lunch recovery 7.48 1:07:09 8:58  
      12/29 Morning Run 13.2 1:55:39 8:46  
      12/30 Lunch Run 7.04 1:03:46 9:04  
      12/31 lunch run 7.7 1:07:38 8:47  
      1/1 Warm up 2 0:18:00 9:00  
      1/1 Chilly Willy Half 13.12 1:31:43 7:00 Nice race (52 and drizzle)
      1/2 recovery 7.65 1:10:03 9:09  
                 
        Total: 69.29      
                 

       

      Week 15          
                 
      Date Name Miles Duration Avg/Mile Notes
      1/3 Morning Run 13.26 1:58:40 8:57  
      1/4 Morning Run 13.2 1:59:51 9:05  
      1/5 11 with 10 x 800 11.09 1:27:05 7:51 6:30-6:35 800s 3 min rest was too much
      1/6 Morning Run 13.01 1:47:34 8:16  
      1/7 Snow Day (Rest)       10 inches of snow joined GYM!
      1/8 Treadmill 8 1:04:00 8:00 6 x 1/2 mile @6:30
      1/9 Long run 3x4 MP 21 2:43:58 7:48 MP 7-7:10, 1 mile easy between 
                 
        Total: 79.56      
                 

      5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

      Fishyone


         

         

        Welcome back Fishy!

         

        Thansk JT Do I remember correctly that you're a Massachusetts guy too?

        5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

           Thansk JT Do I remember correctly that you're a Massachusetts guy too?

           

          Close, I'm in western CT. Very impressive couple of weeks there! You're already at high mileage! I think regarding the couple of things you're doing different this cycle, just be careful about burnout. I find the LRs with big amounts of quality really take it out of me and had a couple of cycles where I ended up overtrained/burned out by race day. Same thing with racing too much. It's all a balance though, riding right up to that line of just enough, but not too much.

          2:52:16 (2018)

          JMac11


          Milkman

             

            I think regarding the couple of things you're doing different this cycle, just be careful about burnout. I find the LRs with big amounts of quality really take it out of me and had a couple of cycles where I ended up overtrained/burned out by race day. Same thing with racing too much. It's all a balance though, riding right up to that line of just enough, but not too much.

             

            I agree with JT here on being careful. I only learned this last cycle there's only so many weeks my body can take intense marathon training, and 18 weeks is not the answer.

             

            I put quality into every single one of my runs, but I've cautioned people before (and failed to follow myself, honestly) that quality in long runs of 20+ is very risky for injuries. It's better to be doing 15-18 mile long runs with big quality, and then just having your 20+ be normal runs, with maybe some progression. Looking back at my injuries, the vast majority come after 21+ mile long runs where I did way too many miles closer to MP than easy pace. I tell myself to dial back this time, but we'll see.

             

            Also, you just ran a 1:31 half? Doesn't that make a 3:15 marathon target 3 months from now very soft? See rule number 7. Your goal on the front page will be sub 3:10.

            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

             

            Next Race: Unknown 

            AceHarris


               

              Also, you just ran a 1:31 half? Doesn't that make a 3:15 marathon target 3 months from now very soft? See rule number 7. Your goal on the front page will be sub 3:10.

               

              This is great!  Should we add a rule 7b - "thread members have overwriting ability on race goals"

               

              Nice weeks fishy! I've historically done a mix of 20+ mile runs with quality.  I've found them quite beneficial, but I too have to be careful on the demand they require.  My traditional marathon workout long runs have been 18-22 with anywhere from 4-10 progressive or at MP. If I race more, my long runs are often just easy miles with maybe the last 1-2 miles 30-60 seconds faster than easy pace.

               

              About 75% of my runs are before sunrise. I have mixed feelings on this. I would typically choose running in daylight. The short days of winter are tough for me, so getting some sunshine in my life makes a big difference. However our winters are often grey, cloud covered days so running at daytime isn't exactly in "daylight". I do appreciate the focused nature of a run in the dark, although I have almost ran into other runners multiple times...even with a headlight.

               

              I'm probably unfair in my dislike of TM runs in that I've typically used them for easy runs, but I also (embarrassingly) get motion sick if I try to watch something while running on a TM. So they are my last resort.

               

              I've used strava heatmaps for out of town runs, but that's about it.

               

              10 mile race on Saturday for me. Looks like temps will be in the upper 20s low 30s. Small chance of precipitation. Hopefully it stays dry. This race was cancelled last year due to icy conditions.  Had a good prep workout yesterday with 2 x 3k (2:00 rest) and 2 x 400 (60s rest). Idea was to start at goal race pace, then change zones on second 3k, then work on turnover and zone transition on tired legs on the 400s. First 3k was at 5:50 pace and second was 5:30 and 400s at 5:00. Overall felt good. 5:50 seems like a possibility. so I think goal of sub 59:00 is both reasonable and not sandbagging as course has some decent hills, but I guess the thread will let me know on that.

              Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 17:09 (2021), 10k: 35:54 (2021), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:53:18 (2021)

              Running Problem


              Problem Child

                Fishy I agree with JMac on your 3:15 goal being soft. 3:10 on a 1:31 half marathon should be the right amount of push to keep training hard. As for long runs...I have my own definition of them. My long run is a one day run about 2 or 2.5 hours long. It's just about getting the big run in, and I've never been one to include speed/tempo/hard runs with it. I've done longER runs with marathon pace mixed in as part of the Hanson's training plan, but never like JMac has with something like 8-13 miles at Tempo pace. I DO agree with him and JT on there being a point where training so hard for so long causing injury.

                 

                JMac wow you're really taking to the Thread Dictator role. Sheesh I'm glad I don't race often enough for you to pick my target times. Thankfully I politely and respectfully refuse to believe I could break 2:50 in the marathon as of this small moment in time.

                 

                Ace you have such a detailed workout plan it blows my mind. I would have stopped at "My plan is to go out at goal race pace."  As for working on turnover and zone transition....ummm yeah sure. mm hmm. *nods in agreement* A 59:00 10 miler would be really cool. I honestly think you could do better just given your ability to perform on race day. I haven't race many 10 milers, and if it's anything like a half you should be really working at almost max effort around mile 7-8 and feel absolutely spent at the end. I'll predict a 58:30 with dry course conditions.

                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                VDOT 54.9

                5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                zebano


                   About 75% of my runs are before sunrise. I have mixed feelings on this. I would typically choose running in daylight. The short days of winter are tough for me, so getting some sunshine in my life makes a big difference. However our winters are often grey, cloud covered days so running at daytime isn't exactly in "daylight".

                   

                  Noon time running for maximum daylight!! That said I live in the Midwest and we have tons of gray clouds for the better part of the winter so I supplement vit-D. I'll do a before work run but only if I have company or it's the only way to get a run in that day. I managed 6 miles on a treadmill last week and it was absolute torture. I won't be doing that again. I'm currently waiting for my z-pak to kick in and make me healthy enough to run again (walking pnumonia). I'm amazed how many people I know are doing the "run every street" thing.  It's sounds interesting but I don't want to spend any extra time driving to the start of my runs. I'm pretty happy to just go out the door and run a route I've run a thousand times before.

                   

                  Fishy, welcome. With mileage that high and a 91 min HM 1:15 is absolutely sandbagging.

                  1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                  darkwave


                  Mother of Cats

                     

                    Fishy, welcome. With mileage that high and a 91 min HM 1:15 is absolutely sandbagging.

                     

                    Kipchoge and Bekele and Gebreselassie would all disagree...

                    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                     

                    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                    zebano


                      Oye Ve what a typo. 3:15

                      1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                      SteveChCh


                      Hot Weather Complainer

                        Interesting sandbagging chat...how have I gotten away targeting 3:20 with a 1:29 half?  I think it's fair for my first...and I'm sure our mileage mentor CK would agree.

                        PB:  Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                        Recent Races:    Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                        Race plan:  Christchurch Marathon April 10, 2022 (Target: Sub 3:20)


                        Elite Jogger

                          Good afternoon fellow advanced marathoners, I’m Mikkey and will be 56yo next week. I’m originally from Northern Ireland (home of all the great golfers) and moved to England 35 years ago with the last 25 in Brighton on the South coast.

                           

                          I ran my first marathon in May 2008 in a time of 3:46 and 8 marathons later I ran my first sub3 at Barcelona in March 2010. I managed to stay in Sub3 shape for the next 9 years - 16 total (10 out of 10 at Majors) and PRd 5k and marathon in April 2019 within 2 weeks of each other.

                           

                          I won’t go into 2020.

                           

                          2021 was mostly a right off due to a lack of motivation and months of injury and finished with a total of about 1030 miles.

                           

                          2022 I think will be better and I’m very excited to be running the Brighton marathon this Spring. I know the course well as I’ve been a pacer 5 times previously, but never actually raced it. I’ve got a couple of half tune up races lined up...Brighton next month and Hastings in March and will probably do a couple of Parkruns as well. It’ll be a case of pushing it to the max without getting injured - easier said than done!

                           

                          Milkman - Can you put me on the list - Brighton 10th April - goal tbd. 👍

                           

                          Treadmill running?  Love it - my longest was 50k and I’ve also run a couple of marathon distance runs.  But I listen to music and observe the tv screen which therefore means I’m mentally weak. 

                          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                          Running Problem


                          Problem Child

                             

                            Noon time running for maximum daylight!! That said I live in the Midwest and we have tons of gray clouds for the better part of the winter so I supplement vit-D. I'll do a before work run but only if I have company or it's the only way to get a run in that day. I managed 6 miles on a treadmill last week and it was absolute torture. I won't be doing that again. I'm currently waiting for my z-pak to kick in and make me healthy enough to run again (walking pnumonia). I'm amazed how many people I know are doing the "run every street" thing.  It's sounds interesting but I don't want to spend any extra time driving to the start of my runs. I'm pretty happy to just go out the door and run a route I've run a thousand times before.

                             

                            Fishy, welcome. With mileage that high and a 91 min HM 1:15 is absolutely sandbagging.

                            Alaska does not agree all the time. 24 hours of daylight for a month means you'd never need to run at noon.

                            1:15 marathon is sandbagging? SHEESH!

                             

                             

                             

                            Steve you get away with it because it is a first marathon. In all fairness I believe Flavio has a 1:22 half marathon PR and hasn't broken 3 hours. Meanwhile I have broken 3 twice and haven't raced a half marathon so the sandbagging is easier.

                            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                            VDOT 54.9

                            5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                            Fishyone


                              Point taken!!  I agree and will accept the challenge. Hopefully the Thread Dictator and his minions will continue to keep me honest.

                               

                              Fishy I agree with JMac on your 3:15 goal being soft. 3:10 on a 1:31 half marathon should be the right amount of push to keep training hard. As for long runs...I have my own definition of them. My long run is a one day run about 2 or 2.5 hours long. It's just about getting the big run in, and I've never been one to include speed/tempo/hard runs with it. I've done longER runs with marathon pace mixed in as part of the Hanson's training plan, but never like JMac has with something like 8-13 miles at Tempo pace. I DO agree with him and JT on there being a point where training so hard for so long causing injury.

                               

                              JMac wow you're really taking to the Thread Dictator role. Sheesh I'm glad I don't race often enough for you to pick my target times. Thankfully I politely and respectfully refuse to believe I could break 2:50 in the marathon as of this small moment in time.

                              5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 


                              Elite Jogger

                                Interesting sandbagging chat...how have I gotten away targeting 3:20 with a 1:29 half?  I think it's fair for my first...and I'm sure our mileage mentor CK would agree.

                                 

                                I’m sure you’ve read some of the scare stories with debut marathons...but you’ve got nothing to be scared of as you are so prepared and disciplined. My feeling is that you’ll run a negative split marathon and then go for it properly at a later date! (I hope so)

                                5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)